How to write 魟鱼 (stingray) in simplified characters?

[anonymoose]

Following the tragic death of Australian TV star and conservationist Steve Irwin from a stingray attack, I tried to find out what the Chinese word for stingray is. What I came up with was 魟鱼, or hóngyú in pinyin.

Now the strange thing is, on all the simplified character websites I found, the fish radical in the 魟 character is shown in traditional form (魚), with the four spot (点) strokes at the bottom rather then the single horizontal (横) in the simplified version (鱼). However, when I checked my Xinhua dictionary (新华词典), the fish radical in 魟 was in the simplified form.

So my question is, which is the proper simplified form of 魟? Is the fish radical in the traditional form, or the simplified form? And if the answer is the simplified, why does it show as the traditional on simplified character webpages?

[Lu]

I've found that with the simplification, a few characters were just forgotten or skipped, although their simplification is obvious. I can't remember what the character was that I could't type in simplified, but this seems to be another example. I suppose that if you'd hand-write it, you'd write it [鱼工], but it doesn't exist in any computer character lists like that, so if you type it you can only type 魟.

[HashiriKata]

Question: And if the answer is the simplified, why does it show as the traditional on simplified character webpages?

Answer: Because there is no other choice. Try inputting 魟 in the simplified form and see.

PS: Sorry Lu, we seem to be saying the same thing. I didn't see your post while typing/ thinking

[anonymoose]

Wow, you guys are quick.

Anyway, yes, that's what I thought. Thanks.

(It's just that I seem to recall some simplified characters still have radicals in traditional form, though I can't think of any off hand.)

[roddy]

Wenlin will give you the simplified version, although I get blanks and question marks when I try and copy and paste it anywhere else.

[againstwind]

"So my question is, which is the proper simplified form of 魟?"

Hi,anonymoose

When you write on papers,write the simplified form.

When you type in computer, use the traditional form, it doesn't matter. Because there is hardly the simplified form of 魟 in the character database of present Chinese inputting systems.

Besides, I could tell you that the simplification project of Chinese character is not a thorough project. Some traditional characters haven't been simplified yet and are using with the simplified at the same time .

e.g.

澍、頔，used in chinese people's names.

And at certain situations, some characters should be used in traditional form.That is established by usage.

e.g.

The famous Chinese writer Qian Zhongshu should be written as 钱锺书, not 钱钟书.

[skylee]

againstwind siad -

The famous Chinese writer Qian Zhongshu should be written as 钱锺书, not 钱钟书.

I am curious, why? I use traditional characters so he is 錢鍾書 to me. And your 钱锺书 is not the traditional form, I believe.

[againstwind]

I am curious, why? I use traditional characters so he is 錢鍾書 to me. And your 钱锺书 is not the traditional form, I believe.

Hi,skylee

I apologize for my negligence.

I mean the character 钟. When it is used in the name of Qian Zhongshu in the mainland, it should be 锺. It's just a custom in field of print and literature.

[anonymoose]

againstwind, thank you for telling me about 鍾, 锺 and 钟.

I must say, this is one of the strangest things I've seen. 锺 doesn't seem to be either completely traditional or simplified, but rather a partially simplified character, and I can't find it in any of my dictionaries (in this form). Very odd!

[zhwj]

锺 isn't strictly part of the simplified character set, so there's some controversy over whether it should be used for Mr. Qian's name at all, or if it's just an example of over-reverence to famous people. He never complained about using 钟.

I've noticed that many articles about the Steve Irwin thing sidestepped the problem by talking about a 魔鬼鱼 instead of a 魟鱼. Actually, many seemed to just reach for their dictionaries, and what they pulled up wasn't necessarily the same information. Articles toss around the terms 魔鬼鱼、魟鱼、刺魟、黄貂鱼 without much consistency.

[in_lab]

It seems like there are some problems or large variation in translating animal names. I remember one presentation where on the slides, "beaver" was translated as both 水狸 and 海狸, but when speaking, the speaker only used 水獺.

[gato]

I use traditional characters so he is 錢鍾書 to me. And your 钱锺书 is not the traditional form, I believe.

There's another story surrounding this.

Supposedly the zhong in his name should be 鐘 (simplified to 衷) and not 鍾 (simplified to.钟).

What do you think? From the dictionary entries below, it seems the professor saying this has it reversed. 鐘 refers to clock, whereas 鍾情 refers to love which would be similar to 衷.

Yet, the character 衷 exists in the traditional character set, too. So can 鍾 be simplified to 衷?

http://news.163.com/05/0329/16/1G1B5HA500011246.html

钱钟书名字写错40年　其弟子称应为“钱衷书”

2005-03-29 16:27:57　来源: 新快报　　

据钱钟书的学生、北京文史研究院副院长栾贵明披露，钱钟书名字的正确写法应该是“钱衷书”。据栾贵明介绍，按照繁体字的写法，钱钟书的名字应写作銭鐘書。

上个世纪50年代第一次简化汉字时，“鐘”和“鍾”同时简化成“钟”字。但到60年代初，有关部门规定“鐘”简化成“衷”，而“鍾”同时简化成“钟”，两者不可通用。但世人因为已经熟悉了“钱钟书”这个名字，而拒绝接受“钱衷书”。到了80年代中期，第二次简化汉字时明文规定，“鐘”与“鍾”不可互相替代，但“钱钟书”一名已经铁板钉钉，再没人使用“钱衷书”了。

http://140.111.34.46/cgi-bin/dict/GetContent.cgi?Database=dict&DocNum=112289&GraphicWord=yes&QueryString=鍾

【鍾】

(1) 盛酒的器具。說文解字：鍾，酒器也。唐˙杜甫˙奉送魏六丈佑少府之交廣詩　：掌中琥珀鍾，行酒雙逶迤。

(2)　量詞。古代計算容量的單位。一鍾約等於六斛四斗。如：千鍾粟。

(3)　樂器名。通鐘。南朝宋˙劉義慶˙世說新語˙言語：若不一叩洪鍾、伐雷鼓　，則不識其音響也。

(4)　姓。如南朝梁時有鍾嶸。

(5) 積聚。如：一見鍾情。唐˙杜甫˙望嶽詩：造化鍾神秀，陰陽割昏曉。

http://140.111.34.46/cgi-bin/dict/GetContent.cgi?Database=dict&DocNum=112310&GraphicWord=yes&QueryString=鐘

【鐘】金-12-20

解釋 (1) 樂器名。一種中空，用銅或鐵製成的打擊樂器。

(2)　計時器。如：時鐘﹑鬧鐘。

[skylee]

Supposedly the zhong in his name should be 鐘 (simplified to 衷) and not 鍾 (simplified to.钟).

I have a 圍城 at home and before I wrote my previous post I had double-checked to make sure that it was 鍾 (with a 重) not 鐘 (with a 童). 鍾 is a surname and can be used to mean love (鍾愛/鍾情). 鐘 means clock/hour.

There is no confusion about it in traditional characters. But I find the simplified characters very confusing. Could someone please advise me if the official simplified character for 鍾 is 钟 or 锺 or 衷 (as gato mentinoed)?

[HashiriKata]

Could someone please advise me if the official simplified character for 鍾 is 钟 or 锺 or 衷 (as gato mentinoed)?

It's 钟 and only 钟, according to my trusted 新时代汉英大辞典。

[studentyoung]

So can 鍾 be simplified to 衷?

No. Please check 衷 in 新华字典 XinHua Dictionary，and you will find that 衷’s simplified is the same as its traditional version.

Could someone please advise me if the official simplified character for 鍾 is 钟 or 锺 or 衷 (as gato mentinoed)?

OK，let’s see the online Xinhua Dictionary says.

http://life.httpcn.com/Dict.asp

钟

（①～③鐘 ④～⑧鍾）

zhōng　ㄓㄨㄥˉ

(1)

金属制成的响器，中空，敲时发声：警～。编～（古代乐器。把一系列铜制的钟挂在木架上组成，用小木槌击奏。各时代形制大小不一，枚数也不同）。～鼎（古铜器总称，上面铭刻文字）。

(2)

计时的器具：～表（钟和表的总称）。座～。～鸣漏尽（晨钟已鸣，夜漏将尽。喻年届迟幕）。

(3)

指某个一定的时间，小时：～头（小时，如“开了一个～～的会”）。

(4)

杯子。

(5)

集中，专一：～情（感情专注）。～爱（特别爱）。～灵毓秀（指美好的自然环境产生优秀的人物）。

(6)

古代器名，一种圆形铜壶。

(7)

中国古代计量单位，春秋时齐国以十釜为“钟”（标准不一）。

(8 )

姓。　　　　　　　　　　　

Thanks!

[gato]

Supposedly the zhong in his name should be 鐘 (simplified to 衷) and not 鍾 (simplified to.钟).

From the dictionary entries below, it seems the professor saying this has it reversed. 鐘 refers to clock, whereas 鍾情 refers to love which would be similar to 衷.

Thinking about it again, it's probably the reporter who reversed the 鐘 and 鍾 in writing the article.

Here's another article about Qian Zhongshu's name

http://www.booktide.com/news/20040423/200404230020.html

从钱钟书名字看出版物文字规范化

According to this 1986 Simplified character master table, 鐘 and 鍾 are both supposed to simplified to 钟. I can't find the 1960s directive (about 衷) that the professor referred to.

http://www.stlcls.org/s-words/Simplified_word.htm

[zhwj]

Gato's first link in [16] pretty much demolishes the argument for 锺; this piece, by the editor of 咬文嚼字, explains away 钱衷书.

[againstwind]

Hi, all

In fact, I didn't think Mr. Qian's name would arose everybody's curiosity. But that's good.

Anyway, it precisely shows that the simplification project of Chinese character is not a thorough project. there are still many problems which are caused by simplification.

[atitarev]

When I paste the simpified version of 魟 hóng into forum, it becomes "?"

鱼[魟魚] ²hóngyú n. 〈zoo.〉 skate

[魟] ⁹hóng b.f. stingray

eef2 (GB+ 8337f937)

Comment from ABC dictionary in Wenlin:

The simplified form is in XHC, but not in Unicode 3.0.

Don't know what XHC is.

[hparade]

I think the 衷 for 鐘 is from the phase 2 of the character simplification which was abolished, so only the first simplification is used, there's only 钟 for both 鐘 and 鍾, and 衷 remains the same use as in traditional characters...