Two 3rd tone Changes in set words?

[L-F-J]

I've been getting the hang of, more naturally, the tone changes in spoken Mandarin. However, I wonder about one more thing:

Ni3 hao3 is pronounced ni2 hao3 because there are two consecutive 3rd tones.

Bao3bao3 is pronounced bao3bao5 because it is a repeated character.

But now, how about two 3rd tones that are not the same character, and are not separate words, but a set expression.. such as ke3yi3. Is it pronounced ke2yi3 or ke3yi5?

(I'm guessing the latter and have been going with that)

Thanks for correction or confirmation and clarification!

[Ding Yiyi]

可以，is pronounced ke2yi3, the rule as I've been taught is that when the characters are repeated the tone on the repeated character is dropped, with a few exceptions. When you get to cases like 你好 or 可以，you are making one word with two characters, and when they are both normally pronounced with the 3rd tone you get "Third tone sandhi" which means that the 3rd tone on the first syllable changes to the 2nd tone, and the second syllable is unchanged (remains 3rd tone).

ONLY when the characters are repeated do you have the possibility of dropping the second syllable's tone entirely. Great examples are: 爸爸，妈妈，哥哥，弟弟，姐姐，妹妹。

An example that goes (a little) outside these definitions is when you're trying to say "do homework" even though both characters are pronounced zuo4 you have to make sure you use the tones because the characters are not the same “做作业“ Remember its the character that makes the difference in how you pronounce a word in Chinese

[Mugi]

L-F-J, between you and Ding Yiyi, I think you got the general rule down, but 可以 can definitely be pronounced ke3yi5 - not sure what the rule governing this kind of sandhi is though. Perhaps it's just emphasis. And I don't know whether it affects other words either. Would be a good topic for an academic paper!

E.g.

A: 可以吃吗? Ke2yi3 chi1 ma5? Can I eat this?

B: 可以! Ke3yi5! Of course!

Remember its the character that makes the difference in how you pronounce a word in Chinese

Not quite sure what is meant by this statement. Characters have nothing to do with determining the pronunciation of a word. If they did, illiterate Chinese wouldn't be able to speak! In the example "zuo4 zuo4ye4", it's the grammar that determines that zuo4 must be pronounced in 4th tone both times, not the characters, which are arbitrary.

[necroflux]

Where in China do people say "ke3yi5"? I've never heard that here in Taiwan.

[HashiriKata]

Where in China do people say "ke3yi5"? I've never heard that here in Taiwan.

I think 可以 can be pronounced just like 小姐: ke2yi5 / xiao2jie5

(But that is by me in the UK, so it may not count! )

[Mugi]

Where in China do people say "ke3yi5"? I've never heard that here in Taiwan.

Northern China. Don't misunderstand me though. It's not the norm. Only pronounced this way when you want to emphasize it's "okay" = "Of course you can (no need to ask)"

Has the same meaning as 当然可以。(这是根本不用问的了) .

ke2yi5 is different again. It seems to me that this is how ke2yi3 sounds when spoken quickly and followed by another word.

[againstwind]

I think 'ke2yi5' mentioned by L-F-J and Muji is 'ke2yi', 'yi5' means no-tone, isn't it?

In fact, we needn't mark ' 5'.

[necroflux]

Againstwind, the 5 is simply to denote the neutral tone (or no tone as you say), and yeah a lot of times people do just drop the number to mean the same thing. Personally I leave it off since the actual pinyin system simply shows no tone marks to indicate a neutral tone:

shi1 -> shī

shi2 -> shí

shi3 -> shǐ

shi4 -> shì

shi -> shi

So I think you're right.

[L-F-J]

Thanks for everyone's input. But does this rule apply to other words with two consecutive third tones? Such as suo3yi3 becoming suo2yi3, suo3you3 becoming suo2you3,or na3li3 becoming na2li3. Because I have seen na3li3 written as na3li a lot.

It seems there are always situational exceptions to the rules. But mostly in words like this it's 2 followed by 3, correct?

[Yuchi]

Thanks for everyone's input. But does this rule apply to other words with two consecutive third tones? Such as suo3yi3 becoming suo2yi3, suo3you3 becoming suo2you3,or na3li3 becoming na2li3. Because I have seen na3li3 written as na3li a lot.

It seems there are always situational exceptions to the rules. But mostly in words like this it's 2 followed by 3, correct?

All those examples you gave are correct, and yeah for the most part they are.

[Ding Yiyi]

Mugi, my reference to the character is the little mneumonic device I invented to remember the "rule" of sorts. I like to remember that when a chacter is repeated that the second one is neutral and when a 3rd tone is repeated the first one changes to the rising tone and the second character stays the same.

[Mugi]

Againstwind, the 5 is simply to denote the neutral tone (or no tone as you say), and yeah a lot of times people do just drop the number to mean the same thing. Personally I leave it off since the actual pinyin system simply shows no tone marks to indicate a neutral tone:

shi1 -> shī

shi2 -> shí

shi3 -> shǐ

shi4 -> shì

shi -> shi

That's right. Some people also mark the neutral tone with a zero (e.g. shi0). I tend to use a 5 because this is the most common method in academic writings (at least the ones I read...). It let's the reader know that you haven't simply forgotton to mark the tone, but are actually deliberately acknowledging that the syllable is neutral. Each to his own.

L-F-J - you're spot on with your general rule of 3-3 becoming 2-3. Regarding 哪里, generally speaking this is pronounced na3li5 by native northern Mandarin speakers and na3→2 li3 by all others. (To complicate things, you'll also hear na3→2 li5)

[againstwind]

That's right. Some people also mark the neutral tone with a zero (e.g. shi0). I tend to use a 5 because this is the most common method in academic writings (at least the ones I read...). It let's the reader know that you haven't simply forgotton to mark the tone, but are actually deliberately acknowledging that the syllable is neutral. Each to his own.

Reasonable.

On the third tones sandhis, i hope this one will be helpful to all ：http://www.chinese-forums.com/index.php?/topic/12-horse-horse-tiger-tiger-slang-and-idioms844

[Mugi]

On the third tones sandhis, i hope this one will be helpful to all ：http://www.chinese-forums.com/index.php?/topic/12-horse-horse-tiger-tiger-slang-and-idioms844

Nice, succinct summary!!

[necroflux]

What's the origin of the word sandhis? Is there a chinese term for this?

[Mugi]

See here: sandhi

In Chinese "tone sandhi" is 变调 / 變調 bian4 diao4

[againstwind]

In Chinese "tone sandhi" is 变调 / 變調 bian4 diao4

That's right.

Besides, Chinese sandhi is 音变 yin1 bian4, including tone sandhi, no - tone (or as Mugi said neutral tone) and 'r' （儿化, like 宝贝 → 宝贝儿)..