Pronunciation of 观光

[HashiriKata]

Hi,

In careful speech, the pronunciation for 观光 is "guan guang"。

However, I believe that in normal speech, most native speakers would normally pronounce 观光 as "guang guang" to minimize the effort of articulation. Now, without a native speaker nearby, how can I check whether this "mini theory" is correct?

So, can native speakers please say the following sentence at normal speed:

"他送给我们一件他观光的小纪念品." or

"他们开始尽情地观光游览。"

and tell me whether they say "guan guang" or "guang guang" ?

(I know there is still the danger of us hearing only "what we think we're saying" rather than "what we're actually saying" . The best way to avoid this may be using a little recorder )

谢谢！

[HashiriKata]

Anyone would like to comment ??

[XiaoXi]

Its 'guan guang'.

[skylee]

However, I believe that in normal speech, most native speakers would normally pronounce 观光 as "guang guang" to minimize the efford of articulation.

What is the basis of the belief?

[HashiriKata]

What is the basis of the belief?

I should write a long book on this!

Anway, it's believed that we as human beings have a tendency to minimize our effort when speaking (the laziness principle! ). One of the ways of doing this is to modify a sound so that it is more similar to its neighbour and we therefore don't have to make so much mouth movement in order to say them. To give an example, 很好 is normally not pronounced as "hen hao" but often as "heng hao", because "ng" (as opposed to "n" ) is much closer to "h".

In "guan - guang", since "n" - "g" are very dissimilar phonetically, I want to check if it indeed turns into "guang - guang" ("ng" - "g") in normal speech, because "ng" and "g" are much closer to each other.

In English, "10 past 3" will normally be heard as "tem past three", due to sound assimilation, to use the big word.

[Gulao]

What is the basis of the belief?

Assimilation, when sounds take on aspects of surrounding sounds, is a fairly common occurence in most languages, native speakers aren't always aware of it though.

Actually, my Chinese teacher here informed the class one day that this is dialectal. In some places, /n/ and /ng/ are indistinguishable, at least when following /i/. For instance, they would pronounce 民 (mín) and 明 (míng) both as míng. I doubt it would be much of a stretch to assume the same thing happens preceding a g or k. That environment is ripe for sound change.

Although, the preceding /a/ would probably still be pronounced [a] in 观 and [ɑ] in 光, so they wouldn't sound exactly the same. At least I think so.

[xentropic]

if you had the chinesepera-kun plugin for firefox you just need to mouseover that to get an answer, i get guan1 guang1 if you want the plugin, head to

https://addons.mozilla.org/firefox/3349/

[HashiriKata]

you just need to mouseover that to get an answer, i get guan1 guang1

Thank you, xentropic! But separate pronunciations of 2 syllables putting together is not what I'm after. What I want is the pronunciation of the two syllables together in natural, connected speech by humans. Anyway, it's not that important. I'll bump into a real Chinese person one of these days!

[gbooky]

oh, i just notice the similar situation in Chinese, like "tem past three"

Now, i tend to believe mostly, Guan-guang sounds the same as Guang-Guang,

no matter whether the speaker does standardly.

By the way, many people from south China like me are not accustomed to differ "Guan" and "Guang" while talking, just like other words with and without an ending "g"

[Quest]

Quote:

Originally Posted by HashiriKata

However, I believe that in normal speech, most native speakers would normally pronounce 观光 as "guang guang" to minimize the efford of articulation.

What is the basis of the belief?

I think it does happen, but it depends on the speaker and the speed.

skylee: think about 肚饿. I knew other examples, but I can't remember atm.

[nipponman]

Although, the preceding /a/ would probably still be pronounced [a] in 观 and [ɑ] in 光, so they wouldn't sound exactly the same. At least I think so.

Wait, the [a] sound is different in these two words? I thought it was the same?!

[Yuchi]

观 gu.an (I'm sure you've heard 安's "an")

光 gu.ang (ong in long)

[semantic nuance]

In Taiwan, many times people will minimize -'ng' to 'n' or 'sh' to 's', without really noticing the differences.(I mean they probably know their correct pronunciations, but they will speak out the lazy versions unconsciously. For examples, sometimes you'll hear people say 40 dollars here in Taiwan as 'si4 si2 kuai4', guo4 cheng2 (過程 process) as guo4 chen2.

Another possibility for mixing 'ng' and 'n' might be that the speaker has difficulty in pronouncing these two. One example is 床 and 船.

Hope it helps!

[HashiriKata]

Thanks to all who have replied, but just a bit more clarification:

I'm intersted in finding out how 观光 is pronounced by native speakers who normally do differentiate between "n" and "ng" and who normally do not have problems in pronouncing either "n" or "ng". Therefore, for those who normally pronounce "n" and "ng" as if they are one and the same sound, this test would be meaningless.

And another example of sound assimilation:

In Japanese, there is a sound represented by the symbol "ん". This sound is pronounced as "n" if it's followed by, for example, a "n" or "t" sound. If it's followed by an "m/p/b" sound, then "ん" is pronounced as "m". Again, if followed by "g/k", for example, it's pronounced as "ng".

[HashiriKata]

The answer is in the attachment!

观光.mp3

[Quest]

In the audio file, it's guan guang.

[semantic nuance]

It's guan guang.

[Lugubert]

Wait, the [a'] sound is different in these two words? I thought it was the same?

So thought I, but one person I know makes a very consistent and clear distinction. Her 观 vowel is even closer than [a], it is rather [æ]. Her 光 has the maximally open [ɑ] (funny, I don't see this vowel here, but copying and pasting into Word reveals it). I have asked several people if this is a regional thing, because Wenlin's voices have identical vowels, and so have other learning media where have managed to find a contrasting pair.

My live reference was born in Hangzhou, and has some southern consonants (Hangcou...). Unfortunately, I can't discuss this problem with her, because she doesn't find vowels in Chinese words but initials and finals. Uan is another final than uang, so there's no vowel to be discussed. (But she is able to discuss vowels in European languages...) This view seems to be not unique; I have seen it described in Kratochvil: The Chinese Language Today.

My academic teacher (a Swede, but very knowledgeable on university Chinese matters as well as filling in with interpreting work) has a standard way of tackling such questions: if you ask three Chinese people, they will give you at least three different answers. There's a Chinese lady, with a good academic background in Chinese linguistics from China, now going for a Ph.D. in this area. She just seemed to be surprised when I asked her about the different 'a' qualities. I found the phenomenon mentioned in passing in Kratochvil's book, so at least I was relieved that what I had heard, really existed.

So, do you see a geographical pattern? Are there similar changes in other vowels to distinguish -n from -ng?

[Gulao]

Her 观 vowel is even closer than [a], it is rather [æ]. Her 光 has the maximally open [ɑ] (funny, I don't see this vowel here, but copying and pasting into Word reveals it).

This is probably closer to what the IPAs for each should be. I'd put 观 at [gwæn] and 光 at [gwaŋ].

I'm fairly sure that this is the case for the final, /an/. Try saying 然后 or anything containing that sound with a fully open a, and it sounds wrong. At least I think so. One of my coworkers would always pronounce it with the fully open a, and it sounded completely off to me.

In the audio file, it's guan guang.

In a recording for learners of English, would you say "unprotected" or "umprotected"? What would you say in normal fast speech? Be careful here.

[HashiriKata]

if you ask three Chinese people, they will give you at least three different answers.

Before I posted the file, I always heard it "guang-guang". Now seeing that some native speakers say that it's "guan-guang", I also hear it as "guan-guang". I find this very interesting and don't know if I can believe myself! We'd now need someone who doesn't know Chinese and who didn't overhear our talk to do the listening!

Are there similar changes in other vowels to distinguish -n from -ng?

Since the place of articulation for /n/ is near the front teeth (dental/alveolar) whereas for the /ng/ is at the back end of the mouth (velar), the effect of the place of articulation on the preceeding vowel is to be expected. For the moment, I can think of the /e/ and /i/ in the contrasting pairs: /en >