Monkey King Dispute

[Horse]

I was wondering if you could help settle a dispute between myself and i friend that has been raging for a while. He has been reading a 4 volume English translation of "JTTW' by Wu Cheng-en and WJF Jenner and claims, despite the fact he cant speak Chinese and has relatively little knowledge of China, he has no problem comprehending the full depth of the book. He claims there are no nuances and subtleties in language and wordplay which go over his head, and that the fact that large tracts of the text are translated from coupletsm pose no problem in his understanding.

We both live in China (me for 2 yrs he for 1), and i find it pompous and absurd that he should claim he is able to pick up (what i've heard is not a very good translation) and claim to fully comprehend all the facets of it. I dont believe this to be true of any translated work of literature as ultimately somethings get lost in translation or through lack of cultural background. I know full well that the couplets used in 'red mansions' and 'JTTW' and all classic chinese lit. are steeped in meaning and have very obscure connotations that even many Chinese people fail to fully grasp and are almost untranslatable. His arrogant stance has really irritated me and i would like some learned sinologist folk to put their 2 penny-worth in.

Many thanks

Horse

[trevelyan]

My two cents are that you should let this guy enjoy his book instead of trying to put him down.

[liuzhou]

He is reading it. You claim on another friend that you "want to read" it.

Guess whose opinion on the book I would take.

[HashiriKata]

@ Horse:

How can you convince the frog at the bottom of the well that there's more above than just the sky that the frog can see? To me, it's probably not the frog's fault to believe that above there is only sky.

[Horse]

Trevelayn, thanks for the comment, but "putting people down" doesnt really come into it as it is purely an intellectual debate between close friends.

[owshawng]

Horse,

Perhaps both you and your friend are correct? Something most likely was lost in translation. However if there are nuances and word play that goes over your friend's head, how would he be able to realize that? How can you miss something if you don't know it exists? Since he has no way to prove he's missed something, he hasn't missed anything and is also correct. At least he's reading a translation of a chinese classic and not a Tom Clancy novel or some US tabloids.

[yonitabonita]

Horse,

I know it's crap when people respond to your questions with "search google". But if no one provide a fruitful answer to your question, then search google.

I'm no translator, but I know that there's an enormous academic discipline devoted to translation and the difficulties with translation ( idioms, ambiguities, multi layered meanings,keeping nuances intact and so on). Translation can be done well, and be very true to the intention of the authhor, but my understanding is that it can never be done perfectly.

A search on google will provide you with the intellectual ammunition you need. Try "Translation, problems".

Y

[Horse]

Nice one Yonita:wink:

[Lu]

Horse: Like owshawng says, your friend won't know what he doesn't see. I think the best you can do is read the book, in a good translation if you can't make it in Chinese, and then have a discussion about it. You will notice soon enough who missed most.

[Altair]

Horse, I have not read Journey to the West, but would find it hard to believe that nothing is lost in translation and in the absence a deep knowledge of the cultural background.

Take one of the names of the Monkey King for example: 孫悟空 (Sun Wukong). From what the English Wikipedia says, this name has meaning:

Sūn Wùkōng (孫 悟空): The name given to him by his first master, Subodhi. The surname Sūn taken from a Chinese word for "monkey", the character itself meaning "grandchild" or "offspring", connected to continuity of life which is good for him who was seeking a way to an eternal life. The given name "Wùkōng" meaning "aware of emptiness".

How do you capture in English the relationship between 孫 (grandson) and 猻 (monkey), both pronounced "sun1"? How can you understand the reference to "emptiness" without understanding something about Buddhism? How can you understand the context of the Monkey KIng's quest for immortality without understanding something about Daoism and the tradition of immortals (神仙 shen2 xian1)? How can you understand the amalgation of religious traditions without understanding something of Chinese religious history?

[Horse]

Exactly! this is precisely the stuff i'm talking about. cheers Altair

[zhwj]

I think a case can be made that your friend actually has a better understanding of the book by reading it in translation. For Journey to the West and Story of the Stone, there is (1) the difference between the language of that time and that of today, and (2) the massive amount of obscure references. A translator will eliminate (1) entirely and assist in (2) with footnotes and in-text explanations; a reader of the original does not have that assistance, and so may miss some of the deeper meaning. There are, of course, annotated versions in Chinese as well that gloss unfamiliar words and explain what the reader is missing when reading just the plain text.

I'd agree that the Anthony Yu version would be better than the Jenner, but that's almost as much a matter of prose style as it is anything to do with translation accuracy.

Besides, the vast majority of people who read Journey are seeking nothing more than entertainment, and any deeper meaning or subtle facets don't even enter the picture. Some people skip poetry altogether.

Naturally, this line of argument doesn't apply so much to more recent stuff. But I'd be willing to argue that, given a good translation of Shakespeare, say, the average Chinese reader is going to have a better appreciation of the meaning of the text than the average reader of the English original. Of course then there's the question of style, and appreciation of the use of language in poetry that makes up a great deal of Shakespeare's fame, but that's a separate question - no one claims that Wu Cheng'en's prose stylings make them weak in the knees.

[Horse]

interesting point. as far as entertainment goes, i know my friend has been entertained by what he has read so far and i'm not suggesting that he is reading it to find answers for any philosphical questions he may have. but just as when i watch a film with my Chinese students and they miss a large amount of a storyline but enjoy the visual comedy and other superficial elements, so i think it is when my friend reads 'jttw'.

[monkeyKingsPals]

post-modernist view:

I've recently posted in another thread on the animation and its English subtitling.

These days life is like coming into a movie at the scene in the peach grove and trying to figure out what the rest of it means.

Given time and motivation it can be done. Attitudes can be worlds apart and be mutually useful, beautiful, even fruitful.

bound by heaven's grace till all stars share no more rays

best regards,

enjoy your friend and the wonderful video

[正在看牡丹]

I agree with Zhwj in that your friend is not neccessarily boasting or being arrogant.

On one hand, no one can claim that he/ she can fully understand literal works and I often suspect that the authors themselves can't either---- it is said that authors are led on by their pens instead of merely using their pens.

And one's understanding of literary works differ or deepen with time and continual reading. When I first read JTTW when I was little girl, I can only be "entertained". After the second or third or fourth reading when I have grown older, I began to appreciate its style and wording遣词用句. Later, I found myself to have begun to probe into psychological features of the characters. Later on... historical features involved, social background revealed, etc. etc....

On the other hand, although cultures are all different, they have many things in common as I always insist. Translation cannot be perfect but it' s not saying that reading translated works is nonsense. Far from that. You might be cheated first by mistranslation when you are not familiar enough with other cultures, but the truth revealed in the translation is also absorbed. The more you read and learn, the less you are cheated and the more conscious you're to mistranslation AND right translation.

Besides, as an outsider of a culture, your friend probably reads something that is neglected or taken for granted by natives (and steeped scholars). Who knows? He reads, and understands what he can. All I recommend is that he reads it over and over again, and finally reads Wu Cheng 'en's original work.