Konall Culture Exchange? Shijiazhuang dialect?

[mjcouturie]

I just want to add my 2 cents in reply to the negative post about KCE. I was a student there from 2/25/09 to 1/29/10, and my time there overlapped the above negative poster's comments.

Teachers - Sid was a new teacher, and the negative comments written about him were from his first student. I never took classes from him, so cannot speak to his competence. I can say, however, that I was one of the 2 students in his "test class", and I never spoke to Kay about Sid's teaching abilities. As to his not being able to write simple Chinese characters, all I can say is, the man graduated from college with a degree in Chinese. Everyone makes mistakes, especially when nervously giving your first class in front of your bosses and fellow teachers. That said, the teachers I have had have all been excellent - patient, demanding and steady, and most importantly, always ready to listen to feedback from me. I actually do not know how much they are paid.

The school building and class rooms

The school building is actually quite nice by Chinese standards. Central heating is started by the city, not by apartment/houses/business owners, so the management has no control over when the heat comes on. They have heaters in the common rooms if people are cold, but honestly, this person is the first person in my year at KCE to complain about it being too cold to study. The school also has several purified water machines that heat water for tea and (always necessary) coffee. And I used a mug the school provided every day for a year. I don't know how someone can not know how to use a white board sitting on a desk and leaning against a wall, but if he almost hurt himself he has problems beyond my skills to fix. I am an American Internal Medicine physician, and I took 3 months of classes in the classroom he complains about, and I never thought it was too dark, but that could be a problem with his eyesight. The school does not, in fact, ask for medical clearance or letters from your Mommy, so be warned in advance, if you need help walking to the toilet, you are out of luck.

Lunch at School

Side dishes? They serve traditional Chinese food, rice with at least 3 other dishes, or every Wednesday (just about) some fried pancake bread mixed with meat. Fresh vegetables and fruit everyday. The only limit on quantity you can eat is that she buys 1 piece of fruit for each student. The hot dishes are all you can eat. Until the 28-year old German arrived, I didn't even know KFC delivered - I was never hungry, and I outweigh him by several pounds.

Host Family or Private Apartment

I never stayed with a host family, so cannot address his complaints. However, I did stay in a private apartment arranged by KCE. The person neglects to consider that KCE charges you one price for the apartment, which includes the rent, utilities, and internet access, as well as the furnishings, bedding, etc. I would also add that I used a maid arranged by KCE for the first 6 months, who cooked my dinner every night and my lunch on weekends, did laundry, cleaned the apt., etc. Great for conversation practice, too.

Excursions

Karaoke, temple visits, mountain hikes, dinners, etc., etc. Shijiazhuang is not a tourist mecca, but Chinese culture is not limited to the Great Wall and Forbidden Palace.

School service

Not sure what to say to this. My first week, my teacher helped me open a bank account, gave me a chinese character/pinyin/English copy of my address, his phone number, the school's phone number, helped me buy a cellphone and arrange service with China Mobile, talked with my maid about what I wanted, etc. When my visa needed renewal, the manager accompanied me to the government building and helped translate when I needed it (which was not much after just 6 months, which should speak to the quality of the teaching). In fact, the overall impression of the school's management I have is that they are, if anything, TOO coddling. But again, perhaps this person's impression was different.

Shijiazhuang

Shijiazhuang is an industrial city with very few Westerners. The air is polluted, not much different from Beijing. The city is dry and dusty, and there is a lot of construction. For those of us who grew up near LA in the 80's, this is not a big deal. As a physician, I would say if you lived there for a lifetime you might suffer some ill effects (though if you are smoking daily, you really have no right to complain about this). But again, and I cannot stress this enough, this is NOT a tourist city. If you want to know Mandarin and understand how middle to lower income Chinese people live, this is a great city to study. If you want to go to a Western bar and eat fried chicken and hamburgers every day, go somewhere else. (Many community colleges offer Chinese language courses, probably within a few miles of your parents' home.)

The office staff (management)

I have been at KCE for almost a year. When I started, Sam and Agnes were taking over most of the managerial duties from James, the founder. He no longer has much to do with the day-to-day operation of the school, at least from what I can tell. Jason was recently added, and Amanda has taken a position at a different company. Sam is from New Zealand, James is American, Agnes and Jason are Chinese. None of them are the least bit sleazy or sneaky, but none of them are easily threatened either. I am not privy to whatever experiences led Kay to believe what he wrote. I will say that I am 37 years old and have been around the block more than once, and these are genuinely nice people who know we are spending a lot of money and time trying to learn a difficult language, and they showed me nothing but respect and support in this.

In conclusion

Look, KCE and Shijiazhuang are not perfect, and the complaints I have had about the school (lack of feedback about students' rate of progress, sometimes forgetting students need help with the language during lunchtime conversations, lack of variety in excursions) have been or are being addressed. The difference is I did not write a threatening letter to the school demanding a reduced fee or "i would have my revenge." All of the students who were at the school when this person was there were shown copies of his letter, asked about things KCE could do better, and were told that he would be asked to leave the school because of his threats. All of the students agreed with this action, and all of the students are still at the school. I have gone from not knowing a word of Chinese to being able to read magazines, newspapers, books, talk with native speakers about a wide range of subjects and even understand some tv shows. This is a difficult language, but if you are serious about using the time to study Mandarin, I think KCE and Shijiazhuang are great places to do it.

[ruikaile]

I am not one to post to forums but after having stumbled across this thread concerning Konall Culture Exchange (KCE) I was moved to register for an account. I was most recently in Shijiazhuang with KCE in August of 2009, so I never met Kay or Sid. I am, however, able to speak to many of the complaints that he cited since we only missed each other by a matter of months.

I am currently an undergraduate student looking to earn a degree in chemistry as well as a minor in Chinese languages and literature. I have the unique perspective of having been to Shijiazhuang, China twice with KCE. My decision to include Chinese in my undergraduate experience with an already credit-heavy major such as chemistry was driven by an overwhelmingly positive experience I had with KCE when I first travelled with them in March of 2007. I travelled with them as a part of a culminating senior project on international volunteerism. Having wanted to travel at a rather awkward time of year for programs to begin, I was delighted to find a program like KCE that allowed me to begin and end my program when it was convenient for me. Before having even set foot in China I had a confirmed homestay, a volunteer assignment that they were able to arrange, as well assistance getting from the Beijing International Airport to KCE’s offices in SJZ. When I was given the opportunity to return with KCE on a scholarship, I didn’t think twice. I returned to Shijiazhuang in June 2009 and remained there until August 2009.

During my time studying in Shijiazhuang, I had three different teachers. I can tell you that all three were outstanding. Times were flexible; if issues arose it was due to the fact that my teachers were only human and could only do so much, not because they were being unreasonable. Each of these teachers also made it their personal mission to assist me with tasks I may have otherwise had issues with using my initially, rudimentary mandarin. I was able to obtain a SIM card, go to the post office, as well as buy food from a local supermarket.

It would be redundant to say that the heating is controlled by the government and that it really is out of the hands of KCE. I’ll say it again just for good measure! I experienced this during my visit in March 2007. The city is in a similar climate zone to where I grew up, so sitting indoors with a little extra clothing was not new to me. Perhaps if you were not accustomed to that, it could detract from your learning. It wasn’t as if you were put into a cold room by yourself; everyone acclimates together and had management had any way to ameliorate the issue, I have no doubt they would have. Unfortunately, it is out of their and all the citizens of Shijiazhuang’s hands.

On that note, if you come to Shijiazhuang expecting full immersion but under the stipulation that you are treated lavishly as a superior to the people around you, this honestly may not be the program for you. I suggest you look for a different program and then perhaps check your western, egocentric mindset. I went to China for an immersion program and to me that means experiencing China, flaws and all. If I wanted to only see the good parts, I would have looked for a picture in the library. I never went to Shijiazhuang under the false notion that it was a hidden paradise or a vacation. It is undeniable that an industrial city such as Shijiazhuang is not a clean as many of the cities from which students come, but that is the reality of China.

The cleanliness of the school is a point on which I disagree with Kay. Having initially stayed in the offices during my transition from arrival to homestay as well as arriving at the school early each morning, I was humbled by the fact that teachers operate on a rotating schedule whereby they come in to clean the classrooms themselves. The teachers take pride in their workplace and thus they keep it tidy. I never had a problem with the lighting, air conditioning (as I was there during the hot summer), or furniture such as desks or white boards.

My experience with the homestay program (two discrete instances) were both very pleasant. I can understand how a long commute to the school would feel like a bit of a burden. Every student has their own commute. I rode a bicycle to school every day. The varying distances that students must travel reflects the seriousness with which KCE finds, screens, and prepares host families. I was never asked to give formal classes, however the enthusiasm that families have to practice what you learned that day makes it natural to want to reciprocate and to teach English. It is a constant language exchange where both parties constantly benefit.

Excursions were never required. So if laser quest and karaoke don’t sound fun to you, there is no need to go. Karaoke is taken to a whole new level in China, though. After having returned, I wish I had gone to try KTV!

I would not describe any of the management as sleazy or sneaky. I was rather taken aback when Kay used these words to describe the individuals who made an effort to get to know me personally and consistently asked how everything was going for me. These words had never ever crossed my mind. The management aren’t just hidden away either. I interacted with them each and every day. I played Xiangqi (Chinese-style chess) with Sam, talked to Agnes about my host family and weekend plans, and had some very interesting, scientific discussions with James. Unless something drastically changed, I would seriously disagree with this characterization of the management.

I can’t overstate how thoroughly impressed I was with my experience with KCE. I recommend it to people who are searching for authentic It is not entirely my place to comment on Kay’s experience, although having travelled with KCE twice I do read it with some skepticism and suspicion as to his motives. I suppose the best way to conclude is to simply suggest that you take multiple perspectives into consideration. I hope that I have made it clear that my experiences were both positive. KCE and the program that it offered me are both things that I stand firmly behind.

[chrix]

wow, this thread should be used in Wikipedia as a prime example for sockpuppeting

Admins, could you check the IP addresses and enlighten us about all these one-time users...

[anonymoose]

From similarities in the style of writing, I'd place money on mjcouturie and ruikaile being one and the same person.

[imron]

Admins, could you check the IP addresses

Please give us a bit more credit than that Admins are checking the IP addresses, and not just the IP addresses, but also the geographic location of those IP addresses, and the email accounts of the posters (including google searches and searches of popular social networking sites) looking for matchups, and currently there is nothing to indicate these posters are connected (hence the reason the post was allowed through moderation rather than being deleted). So although it might look like sockpuppeteering, what it could also be is that KCE has seen a negative post on the forums and contacted former students, and asked them to provide an alternative point of view (it has happened before with other schools, see for example this thread). This is not necessarily something we have a problem with, assuming the posters are all legitimate, however obviously any school asking students to do this should be aware of how such standalone posts from single-post members look in the eyes of most forum members.

At the end of the day it's up to readers to make up their own minds, but we do try to be quite vigilant about sock puppets, and most of the time, problematic posts are deleted without you ever seeing them.

Edited January 9, 2010 at 02:57 AM by imron

[chrix]

keep up the good work then!

PS: so maybe it's an example of "meatpuppeting" then

[Daan]

From similarities in the style of writing, I'd place money on mjcouturie and ruikaile being one and the same person.

I thought the same when reading this latest post. We agree on a lot of things today, anonymoose

[xiaoxiaocao]

*sigh*

We have contacted students who have studied with us over the past few months so don’t be surprised if you see more posts in the coming weeks. We are a legitimate school with a good reputation and we certainly don’t need to engage in ‘’sockpuppeting’’ on message boards.

I think it’s pretty obvious that kay4sic is a spiteful guy and his post was intended to do maximum harm to our school. We’ve worked hard over the past 5 years to build up a solid reputation through our service and instruction and I’ll be damned if I’m going to let some vindictive kid try to take that away by posting garbage about us on internet forums.

I’ll say it one more time – Before you make any decisions about any school, contact MULTIPLE sources. What you need to do is get references that are not anonymous people posting on forums, and just see what they say.

[imron]

I understand completely, and personally, I think that's the better way to handle the situation compared to say demanding negative posts get taken down (that doesn't work if for no other reason than various other sites scrape our content all the time, and if we can't get them to stop doing that, the chances of them removing a single post for someone else are even more unlikely, so it's always going to be out there on the Internet somewhere and you might as well have the counter arguments out there too).

We would certainly encourage such posters to stick around and see what else the forums have to offer though These posts will also appear a lot more convincing for future readers once the posters get a few more posts under their belt.

[chrix]

We have contacted students who have studied with us over the past few months so don’t be surprised if you see more posts in the coming weeks.

That's exactly what "meatpuppeting" is:

Editors of the online encyclopedia Wikipedia use "meat puppet" to deprecate contributions from a new community member if the new member was (apparently) recruited by an existing member only to back up the recruiting member's position. The person is implied to be analogous to a sockpuppet in function and goals, but a real separate person (i.e. "meat") rather than fictitious.

And in your case, it's not even a question of "apparently", since you admitted it yourself.

'nuff said.

[imron]

And again, we don't necessarily have a problem with that as long as they are legitimate posters, posting about their own experiences. Of course the best way to show that is for them to stick around and become active members of the community. That appears to have happened with at least one person from the other thread.

[chrix]

Yes, of course, as long as they head your advice:

Don't just make one post and then leave, never to be heard from again. Now that you've gone to the trouble of registering, stick around, there's lots of other interesting stuff on the forums too. Plus, by becoming an active member it will lend your posts in this thread more credibility, because future readers will see it hasn't just been made by a one-off poster.

[rob07]

Admins are checking the IP addresses, and not just the IP addresses, but also the geographic location of those IP addresses, and the email accounts of the posters (including google searches and searches of popular social networking sites) looking for matchups, and currently there is nothing to indicate these posters are connected (hence the reason the post was allowed through moderation rather than being deleted).

Presumably this applies to the earlier anti-Konall posts (by Silly Billy, Oh China and kay4sic) as well as the more recent pro-Konall posts?

I wouldn't use the term "meatpuppeting" here, as the new posters are not being introduced just for the purposes of winning a debate on the internet as is sometimes the case on Wikipedia or elsewhere. The Konall people have their real world livelihoods (as well as, presumably, that of their families in some cases) tied up in the reputation of their business. They have been open about the fact that they solicit favourable references from past customers, which is entirely appropriate and no more than any ordinary business would do.

You can never be sure about what you read on the internet of course, but speaking as someone who has never been to Shijiazhuang or ever met any of the posters (check my IP address!), I have to say that the vibe I am getting is that the Konall people are dedicated educators who try to give value for money. (That said, they are almost certainly in breach of copyright law.)

[chrix]

Well, the way I see it, it was great that they replied in great detail to the complaints, but I think it is excessive having people flood the thread with more or less similar comments. Of course this isn't against the forum rules, but what use does it have? After the two sides have made their point, can they benefit from having a drove of one-time posters come in here? I think the school side is shooting themselves in the foot here, I for one would have never commented on this thread were it not for their sock-/meatpuppeting.

[imron]

Presumably this applies to the earlier anti-Konall posts (by Silly Billy, Oh China and kay4sic) as well as the more recent pro-Konall posts?

Of course We do slip occasionally, but in general we are quite active in checking these things because we believe it increases the integrity of posts on the forums.

[rob07]

Not all threads on this forum are equally interesting of course. As a reader of these forums, I find this thread much less interesting than, say, Chrix's threads on Classical Chinese or his other posts that give the benefit of his specialist linguistic knowledge (which I generally don't comment on due to my ignorance in those areas).

Just from my personal perspective though, I give respect to any Westerner prepared to try to run a business in China (and in Shijiazhuang of all places!), so I found some human interest in the story of these guys trying to build something and getting letters threatening "revenge". However, for me, there is an enormous difference between a school with only one angry customer and a school with one angry customer but a large number of satisfied customers, so I did find the favorable references interesting and relevant reading. Of course, if they could post more that would be great.

EDIT: Just saw Imron's post (thanks Imron!) - apparently there are a few unhappy customers which of course makes it a bit more complicated. However, as Konall says, learning Chinese in China is not for everyone.

Edited January 9, 2010 at 03:56 AM by rob07
Just saw Imron's post

[chrix]

Thank you, too kind. I agree with you, there are much more interesting threads here, it must be my astroturfing allergy that prompted me to post here (si tacuisses, philosophus mansisses).... So I'll just bow out of this thread and let it speak for itself. (But it did get me over the 1,000 limit )

[Izakoe]

So it seems to be that some people had bad experiences and others had GREAT experiences.

All I can say is I had a wonderful time in China via this program in October of 2008 AND I'm going back again for the dates 3/11/10 to 4/10/10.

[Friedrich]

I found the same comments (word by word from both sides) on another forum as well.

A bit funny the whole thing if you ask me.

[youngmick]

Hello all,

Does anyone have any recent experience with KCE that they can share? Not to bring up any bad blood in this thread, just curious as to hear about some more experiences.

Thanks!