10 most difficult dialects

[Quest]

The "y" in Jyutping has a different function as it modifes the pronunciation of "u" to be more like the english pronunciation of "you". So [letter]+"yu"+[letter] sounds totally different to [letter]+"u"+[letter] as proved by the usage of 決 kyut3 and 括 kut3

But why is "j" necessary....

[wannabeafreak]

But why is "j" necessary....

LSHK perhaps thought y is used as part of a "final" cluster, so they decided that there needed to be an "initial" consonant, picking j as it wasn't being used as anything else. Maybe there is some phonetic reasoning as to why Germans use "J" to be an english "Y".

Regardless of why "j" is necessary. The fact of the matter is, you are basing the Jyutping romanisation on English which is not good.

I have never heard any people learning German complain why Germans say "Ja" to mean yes instead of "ya".

Its pointless debating this, we could go on all day in similar discussions in which we say why "k" in "knife" and not "nife".

[sjcma]

"j" is just a straight adoption from the International Phonetic Alphabet. Seems like a pretty straight forward reason to me.

[Ah-Bin]

You have to wonder whether the people they asked had actually tried to learn any of the "dialects" or just relied on hearsay.

I would say that any of the Wu dialects would be more of a challenge for a Putonghua speaker than Cantonese because of their tone sandhi rules. Wenzhouhua has the most difficult rules for tones that I have come across, because in compound words the two component characters change their tones. Imagine having to learn rules like the Putonghua "two third tones = one second and one third tone" for every combination of tones!

Then there is the Fuzhou (Foochow) dialect, where the initial consonants of each syllable can change. Cantonese tends not to have these changes, and tends to stick to the rule of "one pronunciation to one character" more than Wu or Minbei dialects.

Of course, I might just be thinking these things are more difficult because I'm thinking in terms of complexity of rules, whereas most Chinese are unaware of any such rules and just dive straight in and speak.

[Quest]

I agree, Cantonese is fundamentally very similar to Mandarin. Only the vowels and tones make it sound like a very different language.

[imron]

You have to wonder whether the people they asked had actually tried to learn any of the "dialects" or just relied on hearsay.

The title of the article is 有趣!中国十大最难懂方言排名. So it's talking about the 10 most difficult to understand dialects (from the point of view of a native Mandarin speaker), and not the most difficult to learn. Rather than being a definitive factual list compiled after extensive research and surveys, it's just a light-hearted article in which the author goes through and gives reasons why he/she believes a given dialect to be more/less difficult to understand than the others.

The reasons why the author listed Cantonese as number 2 are clearly stated in the article. Whether or not you think these reasons are valid is a different matter.

[HashiriKata]

Wenzhouhua has the most difficult rules for tones that I have come across' date=' because in compound words the two component characters change their tones...

Then there is the Fuzhou (Foochow) dialect, where the initial consonants of each syllable can change. [/quote']I'd be fascinated to learn about these dialects and to see how the rules work. As a language is meant to be used by all the members of the community, I believe that once understood the rules shouldn't be as complicated as they first appear to be.

[YETIboy1230]

Of course we know one can move the Taishan to another location if one's got the will

LOL

I'd be fascinated to learn about these dialects and to see how the rules work. As a language is meant to be used by all the members of the community, I believe that once understood the rules shouldn't be as complicated as they first appear to be.

terrific.....with the spirit of "愚公“,you will have all these ten dialects“斩于马下” in some day:wink: ....

speaking to dialects,both cantonese and hokkien or other "martian" are a foreign language like english is to me.....And as far as i know, some dialects like sichuan hua, belongs to the category called "北方方言“[a quite big family,you can see it as the original forbear of Putonghua] ..thus,if someone with a dialect belonging to "北方方言",his/her ancestors come from northern china[more exactly,黄河流域].

so why are there so many distinct dialects?i guess your curiosity collars me...okay okay...i learned it [but i am not so sure] it wasn't until "春秋战国时代"[approximately BC 770 to BC 221] that wen zhou hua or guangdong hua [or other isolated states]are considered to adopt hanzi as their scripts because their folks traded,communicated..etc.more and more with so called"中原人" so much so that their chiefs think it was a must....[yup,before this,you could simply call cantonese "a foreign language" and i don't know if there were font-systems existing in their states].....that is why we have the same font-system but a completely different pronunciation...it applys to korean,japanese,vietnamese even thai and other countries near china...

lastly,i have to confess that before reading this thread,i didn't know there was a cantonese pinyin system...i just know that tai wan has a quite different system to pronounce..it is historically a japanese look....

[Quest]

YETIboy, a couple points about your last post. I hope it helps.

And as far as i know, some dialects like sichuan hua, belongs to the category called "北方方言“[a quite big family,you can see it as the original forbear of Putonghua] ..thus,if someone with a dialect belonging to "北方方言",his/her ancestors come from northern china[more exactly,黄河流域].

It depends on how far back you go. Many 南方方言 speakers ancestors also came from 黄河流域. Many 北方方言 speakers ancestors did not come from 黄河流域. Speaking one dialect vs. another isn't a very good indication of ancestry.

so why are there so many distinct dialects?i guess your curiosity collars me...okay okay...i learned it [but i am not so sure] it wasn't until "春秋战国时代"[approximately BC 770 to BC 221] that wen zhou hua or guangdong hua [or other isolated states]are considered to adopt hanzi as their scripts because their folks traded,communicated..etc.more and more with so called"中原人" so much so that their chiefs think it was a must....[yup,before this,you could simply call cantonese "a foreign language" and i don't know if there were font-systems existing in their states].....

Firstly, Cantonese did not even exist then, neither did wenzhouhua. 中原人 also did not speak 普通话 or any 北方方言。Last time I checked, the consensus was that all 7 major Chinese dialects share the same genetic origin, and belong to the Sinitic subbranch of the Sino-Tibetan language family.

that is why we have the same font-system but a completely different pronunciation...it applys to korean,japanese,vietnamese even thai and other countries near china...

Although you might not understand some Chinese dialects, they were closer to 普通话 than you would think. Korean, Japanese, and Vietnamese are much different in terms of grammar, core vocabulary, and genealogy.

lastly,i have to confess that before reading this thread,i didn't know there was a cantonese pinyin system...i just know that tai wan has a quite different system to pronounce..it is historically a japanese look....

There are many pinyin systems for Mandarin, Cantonese, and other dialects. The "japanese look" system used in Taiwan is called "注音符号“, which was invented by the Chinese in China soon after the death of the 清 dynasty.

Please excuse me for quoting wikipedia, I know some people are against it, but it's too convenient to ignore (if you are outside of China of course).

[YETIboy1230]

depends on how far back you go. Many 南方方言 speakers ancestors also came from 黄河流域. Many 北方方言 speakers ancestors did not come from 黄河流域. Speaking one dialect vs. another isn't a very good indication of ancestry

you are right..but you meant what i meant...maybe i made it too confusing...

Firstly, Cantonese did not even exist then, neither did wenzhouhua. 中原人 also did not speak 普通话 or any 北方方言。Last time I checked, the consensus was that all 7 major Chinese dialects share the same genetic origin, and belong to the Sinitic subbranch of the Sino-Tibetan language family

i think,from some academic reference,"粤语"[of course,it was not called "粤语“then,so to "中原人“] does exist after the "春秋" within a state called "越国“

Although you might not understand some Chinese dialects, they were closer to 普通话 than you would think. Korean, Japanese, and Vietnamese are much different in terms of grammar, core vocabulary, and genealogy.

well...i made a mistake semantically...i didn't mean to say that japanese or other "foreign languages" is in the same case as "粤语等”[though my words appear so:( ]...appreciated it very much that you pointed out

There are many pinyin systems for Mandarin, Cantonese, and other dialects. The "japanese look" system used in Taiwan is called "注音符号“, which was invented by the Chinese in China soon after the death of the 清 dynasty.

i can't get access to wiki. and i think it is so inconvenient to use a proxy here to make it in my campus...so sorry i can't check it ..but when i chatted to a friend from taipei,i noticed that she used a phonetic symbol system which is in the japanese character form and she told me that was their "pingyin"

i think add something to clear my last clumsy post up

According to some reference,chinese dialects are divided into 7 groups

1. 
   
   1. 北方方言，范围:北方和大部分南方，面积占汉语地区的3/4,人口八亿以上
      
   2. 吴方言, 最早的南方方言，秦始皇的统一对其影响最大，代表是上海话，苏州话
      
   3. 湘方言，稍晚于吴语，来源于古楚语，代表是长沙话
      
   4. 赣方言, 介于“吴[国]语和楚[国]语之间”
      
   5. 客家方言
      
   6. 粤方言，广州话为代表[来源于古百越语]
      
   7. 闽方言，福建话为代表
      

here "北方方言“is the forbear of dong bei hua,tian jin hua, sichuan hua..etc...so no wonder they are much similary and ”北方方言“ has a great influence on the development of other dialects[some dialects,like“客家话” are even origianlly formed from "北方方言“,but isolation and time make them quite different.

i have to make another emphasis on the name of "北方方言“ .it is called so ,on my own guess, coz it is originally from "north" but widespread nowadays in every corner of china.so it is maybe quite confusing but i do not mean dialect that is just spoken in the north

here it is the map of "战国时代"

[Ncao]

Although it's wrong to think the 注音符號 is a Japanese invention,but it's understandable why some mainlanders would make this mistake. Some of the 符號 does kind of resemble Japanese hiragana/katakana.

[Quest]

Originally Posted by QuestIt

depends on how far back you go. Many 南方方言 speakers ancestors also came from 黄河流域. Many 北方方言 speakers ancestors did not come from 黄河流域. Speaking one dialect vs. another isn't a very good indication of ancestry

you are right..but you meant what i meant...maybe i made it too confusing...

Pardon me, but I failed to see how I meant what you meant.

i think,from some academic reference,"粤语"[of course,it was not called "粤语“then,so to "中原人“] does exist after the "春秋" within a state called "越国“

粤语 is just an arbitrary name chosen for the present-day 中文 dialect spoken in that region of the country. 古越语 was a totally different language. Whether 古越语 was Sinitic, I don't know, but modern 粤语 is fundamentally Sinitic, and is derived from 古汉语。

i can't get access to wiki. and i think it is so inconvenient to use a proxy here to make it in my campus...so sorry i can't check it ..but when i chatted to a friend from taipei,i noticed that she used a phonetic symbol system which is in the japanese character form and she told me that was their "pingyin"

I will quote wiki for you:

注音符號舊稱為“注音字母”，為漢字注音而設定的符號，1913年由中國讀音統一會制定，1918年由北洋政府教育部發佈，共計39個字母，排列以“ㄍㄎ”開頭；1920年改訂字母順序，增加一個字母“ㄜ”共計達40個。注音初期以讀音統一會所定字音為標準，故有“ㄪ(万)v、ㄫ(兀)Ng、ㄬ(广)Gn”三個字母，後以北京音為標準，“ㄪ(万)、ㄫ(兀)、ㄬ(广)”只作注方言之用，目前仍使用的有37個（聲母21個，韻母16個）。1930年中華民國政府把注音字母改稱為“注音符號”，正式的稱呼是國語注音符號第一式。相對於漢語拼音來說，注音符號有時簡稱注音。1935年，中國國語推動委員會制定新國音為中國的統一語言規範，而使用的拼音符號即為注音符號。而該拼音方式，也沿用至今的台灣。

i think add something to clear my last clumsy post up

According to some reference,chinese dialects are divided into 7 groups

北方方言，范围:北方和大部分南方，面积占汉语地区的3/4,人口八亿以上

吴方言, 最早的南方方言，秦始皇的统一对其影响最大，代表是上海话，苏州话

湘方言，稍晚于吴语，来源于古楚语，代表是长沙话

赣方言, 介于“吴[国]语和楚[国]语之间”

客家方言

粤方言，广州话为代表[来源于古百越语]

闽方言，福建话为代表

The list of fangyans are correct, but their origins aren't. One should not confuse modern dialects with ancient languages, I don't know how to make that clearer.

here "北方方言“is the forbear of dong bei hua,tian jin hua, sichuan hua..etc...so no wonder they are much similary and ”北方方言“ has a great influence on the development of other dialects[some dialects,like“客家话” are even origianlly formed from "北方方言“,but isolation and time make them quite different.

The inverse is more likely the case. 北方方言 is a relatively young dialect that only started to form after the Song dynasty. Its loss of Middle Chinese (中古汉语) tones and final consonants make it a younger brother of many of the 南方方言s, which preserved many of the characteristics of Middle Chinese.

Sichuan or the 蜀地/汉中 area did not originally speak a "北方方言", it is speculated that a blackdeath like disease wiped out the original population, who spoke a dialect closer to 粤语 than 普通话。Shown below is a 汉语方言 ancestry tree (source: wikipedia) that our forum member Ala also posted sometime ago, it is by no means "the truth", but I believe it is the result of a much more authoritative study than you or I could conduct.

i have to make another emphasis on the name of "北方方言“ .it is called so ,on my own guess, coz it is originally from "north" but widespread nowadays in every corner of china.so it is maybe quite confusing but i do not mean dialect that is just spoken in the north

here it is the map of "战国时代"

Yes it originated and is spoken in the North, but only after 宋 Dynasty (the approximate birth time of the present-day 北方方言. 黄河流域 during 战国时代 spoke a very different "北方方言", and probably one that is closer to a modern 南方方言。

[YETIboy1230]

Quest:

thanks indeed for your quotes from kiwi....

it is really a vivid[i even find it cute] figure....

i have to make a announcement that i am a not majoring in chinese culture....and i only know a little ,something vague about it from my past education..so i think i am now swaying on my standpoint:mrgreen: .coz now in the university,as of now ,there has been more than two years that i parted with "yu wen" and "li shi".......sigh,i think i should brush up it shortly ....

but by the way,what i posted earlier refered to some textbook...well...there is a possibility it is out of date anyway........

speaking of tai3 wan1 ping1 yin1,there comes a question:why does it kinda resemble japanese character?...is there any possibility by any chance that it is somewhat influenced by katakana?

[Jose]

is there any possibility by any chance that it is somewhat influenced by katakana?

Maybe. Chinese scholars at the beginning of the twentieth century received a lot of influences from Japan. Another possibility is that the similarities just reflect the fact that Zhuyin Fuhao has a similar origin to the Japanese syllabaries. It is also based on choosing a reduced set of some of the simplest Chinese characters in a cursive or short-hand style and using them just for their phonetic value. As another poster pointed out before, remember that it is not really correct to refer to Zhuyin Fuhao as Taiwan Pinyin. The system was actually developed in Mainland China, and was still used in children's textbooks in the fifties after the Communist victory in the civil war. This is one of those many cases where Taiwan has simply continued to use what the rest of China was using before 1949.

Even more similar to Katakana was the older Guanhua Zimu (官話字母) system created by Wang Zhao (王照), which, although largely forgotten today, was probably the most successful phonetic system ever for writing Chinese. According to Ping Chen's Modern Chinese, books, newspapers and magazines were printed in the system at the beginning of the 20th century. Ping Chen's book has a table with the Guanhua Zimu symbols, but I haven't been able to find any image online.

[YETIboy1230]

Thanks indeed Jose. And thanks to Quest too. He/she pointed out my imprudence and you filled up my knowledge hole. Your explanation is very detailed and rather reasonable.

[Vivahysteria]

东北话ranked 10th.

I'm from the northeast and I really think it's even the easiest dialect. People from other parts of China can easily understand our dialect but it's almost a mission impossible to make sense of other dialects such as Cantonese and Shanghainese...

[trien27]

Wenzhounese, Ive heard before. It's similar to Shanghainese. A Shanghainese told me "Wenzhounese is more vulgar". My opinion: Both Shanghainese & Wenzhounese came from Wu, but Wenzhounese is a lot faster than Shanghainese. I can speak neither, but I've heard both being spoken before.

[trien27]

Zhuyin Fuhao is from Japanese? Wrong. Japanese came from Chinese first! Hello? Most of simplifications of Modern Japanese are the same as Simplified Chinese or a modified version of it. It was invented in 1913. The Qing/Ching dynasty ended in 1911.

[shoepergirl]

Hi I know this thread is really old but I just wanted to add my two cents in:

Chinese as we know it in Singapore is very different from the various dialects of Chinese spoken in actual Chinese-land, ie. China.

For one, our Hokkien is the 'illiterate man's Hokkien' adulterated with Teochew and Malay (try asking someone how to say "pig trotters", "toilet paper" and "english"), and I wouldn't blindly trust a "Teochew" Singaporean to teach me Teochew, if only for the fact that it is most likely to have in it Hokkien influences as well.

Our Cantonese is, apparently, very awful sounding to Hong Kongers (I have not had an opinion on this from a Canton yet). For example, in Cantonese there is no sound ending in "iong" or "eong". It is not "hou cheong" (very long), but "hou cheung"; not "shiong hei", but "sheung hei". Add to this the omittance of most of the proper 9 tones in the Cantonese dialect and you have Singaporean/Malaysian Cantonese.

Cantonese is more difficult than we give it credit for. We have some semblance of an exposure to this dialect, so we think it can't be that hard. Try conversing in pure Cantonese (ie. no "size-y" and "fee-lum-see") with someone from Canton/Hong Kong and if you pay attention to your mastery of Cantonese versus that of your conversant's, you will hear the vast difference.

I am a Singaporean living in Milan, and a lot of the Chinese people here are from Wen Zhou/ Zhejiang. When they speak in Wen Zhou it boggles my mind. Obviously I have not heard it before but I can assure you it sounds pretty cheem. Whether or not it is more difficult than Cantonese I can't say, but if it is then I sure as hell don't want to learn it.

[creamyhorror]

For one, our Hokkien is the 'illiterate man's Hokkien' adulterated with Teochew and Malay (try asking someone how to say "pig trotters", "toilet paper" and "english"), and I wouldn't blindly trust a "Teochew" Singaporean to teach me Teochew, if only for the fact that it is most likely to have in it Hokkien influences as well.

My pet theory (possibly taken from elsewhere) is that the majority of Chinese Singaporeans are descended from villagers and lower strata workers rather than intellectuals or the upper class, meaning that there was less focus on a high level of verbal communication and vocabulary. Once we got thrown together with other racial groups and got our dialects wiped out in official media, our dialect ability never had a chance, and we didn't get very good at Mandarin either.

At least Cantonese speakers here and in M'sia consume HK media, so they can at least keep in touch with a 'standard' variety of the dialect. If anything, the Cantonese people I know tend to be more in touch with their dialect than people from other dialect groups - they tend to use it with family.