choosing locale for immersion study

[hidden12345]

ok, so I am planning a 2-6 yr stay beginning about 2008, and I am looking for a little advice/feedback on where to go.

There are however a few factors of varying importance that will help me weigh my final decision.

1.) LOCATION- I want to study in the north. Clearer accents, taller women, we all have are reasons.. here are a few locales: Beijing, Dalian, Harbin, Qingdao, somewhere in Jilin.

2.) EDUCATION- I work now up until the time I'll be moving, so money isnt really a concern as far as that goes. I'm a lower intermediate now (2006) and expect to have made quite an advance by 2008, so i want a challenging program to say the least. The one that has caught my eye the most CET Harbin.

3.) OTHER LANGUAGE EXPOSURE- I am interested in learning Korean as well, so I would love to be in a place that had a rediculously high population of Koreans. Other ancillary languages would include Japanese and Russian, but Korean is my top "other" language pick,

4.) STIMULATION- the place must be somewhat exciting as to avoid clinical depression.

Any ideas? Much appreciated as always.

[djwebb2004]

Hmm. The various criteria you adduced point in different directions.

2) Challenging programmes - hard to find. Most foreign students are here doing elementary or intermediate Chinese - I have lived in China for nearly 2 years on and off and have so far not met a foreigner fluent in Chinese - if as you say money is not a problem, then CET Harbin would seem a good choice. But: it's cold up there. There are a number of other similar programmes: IUP in Beijing, CET in Nanjing - shd be many beautiful women around the Yangtze River Delta.

1) Location: Beijing: expensive, big city, hard to get round, many foreigners, bad accent (putonghua ruined by the local "r" and a general swallowing of syllables along the lines of buridao instead of buzhidao), but good night life, the most intelligent Chinese students (having scored high on the gaokao to avoide ending up in Tibet University), poor weather, etc. Probably a bad choice overall.

Dalian: a good choice: smalleer than Peking, an up and coming city, near Korea, good connections to Shandong too by boat, weather still not fabulous (you picked the north). Harbin: best putonghua in China, very, very cold, lots of Russians. Qingdao: another good choice, not much to choose between Dongbeihua and Shandonghua, both are Mandarin subdialects not as far from the standard as some others such as Sichuan, unless you go to Harbin to get the full blown good accent. I am not sure the nightlife in Qingdao will be as good. Probably no good programmes either. Jilin: probably no good programmes, fairly good Mandarin, but very cold, close to Yanji if you want to see the Chinese Koreans.

Of the places you mentioned only Qingdao and Dalian sound worth exploring.

3) Other language exposure: yes all these places have lots of Koreans - even in Kunming where I am there are lots of Koreans, and they are the bulk of the foreign students in China, but I don't know how interested they would be in helping you learn Korean - they are a very tightknit community, and you will probably communicate with them, if at all, in Chinese. You basically have your hands full with Chinese anyway.

4) Stimulation: Beijing will be the most stimulating of the ones you mentioned and Dalian is also probably a good choice in that area too. There is a good uni called Da Wai in Dalian which has good programmes.

[lucha]

I am studying at Beijing at the moment. Personnally， if I could make the choice again， I wouldn t come to this city ： too big， too many foreigners （especially if you go to BCLU）and most of all，a very strong accent （they add ‘er’at the end of many words）. Beijingers say they speak standard clear Chinese but in my opinion，they dont. Also they don t make any effort to articulate. I don t know how it is for other places. Meanwhile I had good echos on Qingdao （good teaching method）but can t remember which uni it was.

[hidden12345]

No replies, ey? Perhaps somehing more specific.

Is there any one program (public, private, american-run, etc.) in Dalian that is on par with the CET Harbin program in terms of educational rigor, structure and intensity?

Someone please answer..

[djwebb2004]

Is there any one program (public, private, american-run, etc.) in Dalian that is on par with the CET Harbin program in terms of educational rigor, structure and intensity?

The answer is no. But the CET Harbin is, I have heard, very intense. Do you really want to live with a room-mate speaking Chinese every minute of the day with no time for going out because of homework intensity? There are drawbacks to an intense programme too... Dalian's Foreign language university is well known for its courses, but they are not the full-on, intense programmes with 5 hours of homework a night that you are referring to. But probably a good mid-range choice...

[1on1Mandarin]

Hidden12345,

I am going to have to disagree with most everything that djweb2004 has advised you on.

1) The accents. I have lived in China for over 4 years now (all in Beijing), I have travelled to many different cities in China for business, so I would say that I have more experience with interacting with real locals in these areas than most foreigners in China. Of the places that I have been, I would say that Beijing is still the best suited for foreigners. While there are places in the North East like Harbin and Dalian, where the people speak Putonghua, they still have accents. If people say that beijing people have heavy "er" accents, then these people are probably basing most of their opinions off of their experience with cab drivers, older beijingers, store owners, etc. To be honest with you, Beijing is the best place to learn Chinese because EVERYONE speaks standard Mandarin. If you interact with educated people, you will have no problem. Obviously, if you spend all of your time is the taxis and alleys (Hutong), then you may have some difficulties.

Harbin has relatively standard Mandarin, but Harbin is like a very small run down town. The last time I went there, about 1.5 years ago, they didn't even have a starbucks. Dalian, now, is a little bit better on the modern aspect, but the locals pretty much speak have a psuedo-dialect (half mandarin, half Dalianese).

2) The city is too big. Yes, Beijing is very big. But what city in China isn't? China is the most populated country in the world!

3) Too many foreingers. This can also be a good thing. Let me put it like this: sometimes you need some Americana. Have a large foreign network in the city you live in makes your transition much more pleasant. You have loads of foreign food, activities, organizations, healthcare, schools, music. Basically everything you would want in your home country you could probably find here in Beijing. A great example is with all the Europeans and their cheese and wine, granted not the greatest, but if you have the money you can find it. Sometimes I just want an american breakfast so I just go to Grandma's Kitchen. I think you get my point. You're gonna have very, very few options elsewhere.

4) Hard to get around. Use the subways.

5) Too expensive. My understanding is that you are currently working, so money is not going to be as tight as a student. Beijing can be expensive, but it doesn't have to be. If you find the right places rent can still be quite cheap. Now if you are comparing Beijing to less modern cities, yes, Beijing is more expensive, but there are also more extra curricular benefits available. This isn't Thailand, but it also isn't Tokyo. For a westerner, Beijing is still cheap.

6) Longterm development. Now if you are looking to stay in China for 2-6 years, I cannot emphasize this enough. Contacts in China is everything! Beijing and Shanghai are the two best places in China for that. In Shanghai, however, you have to deal with Shanghainese, which is a completely different dialect like Cantonese. Beijing is full of not only foreigners, but also most business in China has to go through Beijing somehow or another because it is the capital; so if you look, you will also find excellent Beijing contacts that can help you in other places in China.

Generally speaking, Beijing is a very International city, that is very difficult to find almost anywhere in the world. Furthermore, you are not going to find a better place in China to study the language and work on you longterm development at the same time.

Who said Beijing sucked?

[1on1Mandarin]

Hidden12345,

One other thing I forgot to mention is that the Korean population is staggering. In the university district alone, there is an estimated population of 40K. In wangjing, an estimated 60K.

If you are looking for good korean food and language opportunities, you will have you more than you can handle in Beijing.

[djwebb2004]

1on1Mandarin's points are mostly good. It really depends what you want out of China. I can't tell you to go, or not go, to a big city, or to choose, or not choose, a place with lots of foreigners. De gustibus non est disputandum.

But one point that is just incorrect is to say that "EVERYONE [in Beijing] speaks standard Mandarin". Beijing dialect is not standard Mandarin. Let us divide standard into pronunciation, vocabulary and grammar. Standard Mandarin pronunciation is based on Beijing pronunciation, but shorn of most of the rhotacisation; so to the extent that rhotacisation occurs more than in the standard, Beijing dialect differs from the standard. There are words used in Beijing that have not made it into the standard, so not all vocabulary items used by locals are standard Mandarin. As for grammar, I am not aware of any grammatical features that differ from the standard, but would love to know if anyone knows. But to recap: in terms of accent and vocabulary there are relatively minor differences between Beijing dialect and standard Mandarin. As a very developed city with good education, there are of course, just as there are in Shanghai, many Beijingers who do speak very standard Mandarin shorn of localised features.

But, in fact, as a foreign student of Mandarin, you will probably study in a university, and university students hail from all parts of China, and so wherever you go in China you will probably find you are meeting many Chinese people with standard or close-to-standard Mandarin. Even if you go to Guangzhou to study at a university there, you will still find that university students make up a large proportion of your friends and acquaintainces, and these come from all over China, and so the to-do over local accents is somewhat overrated. Living in Kunming as I do, of course there is Kunming hua to cope with - Kunming hua is a Mandarin subdialect, but even people from elsewhere in China do say it takes them a few months to feel comfortable with Kunming dialect after arriving in the Spring City. But the thing is: living near the university and knowing many educated Chinese, I mix with Chinese who have superior putonghua. It is only really shopping/taking a taxi/talking to the gateman that I hear Kunming dialect. I think the subject of location vs. accent is way overblown. If the person who started this thread is really going to go on an intensive course with 5 hours of homework a night, living on campus, surrounded by university students and professors, it really doesn't make any difference where the campus is located. It could be rural Guangdong, but the intensity of his study and his academic environment will mean he has little to no exposure to whatever local dialect is spoken in the area near where he lives - which he will have little time to explore.

[djwebb2004]

Some of these posts in this thread are carbon copies of ones posted i n the Who said Beijing s*cks? thread.

[a'long]

I'm sorry, but I have to disagree with 1on1mandarin, Beijing sucks for learning chinese. You will rarely get a chance to speak it, you are surrounded by foreigners at ANY university offering a Mandarin program, and it is way overpriced for what you get. And making contacts in Beijing as a noobie Mandarin student? LAF!! in Beijing you are competing for those contacts with people who have lived there for ten years, have masters degrees, years and years of experience, and already speak Chinese. As a new student arriving in China you just have nothing to offer a Chinese company in Beijing. You will be far more advantaged in a town that isn't overrun with laowai where there are still some chances and you still seem like "something special" to the locals.

[amandagmu]

In my own experience, I learned how to speak better in Dalian than in Beijing. I am pretty sure this is because I was the only English speaker in my class. No one would know what I was talking about if I even tried to mention an English word... But, it all depends on what you want. I've heard that for what I want to do eventually (read historial sources and newspapers in Chinese) I need to go back to the IUP program in Beijing or the ICLP program in Taipei. Apparently the other programs just aren't as applicable for what I need to do.

~Amanda

[sthubbar]

I'll second 1on1mandarin's vote for Beijing. Beijing city is so large and diverse that all of the good things you want can be found here as well as all of the bad things.

If you are looking for an immersion experience, then I would view Beijing as a dieter visiting a huge all you can eat buffet. This buffet has all of the fresh fuit and salad you would want, it is up to you to resist the deserts. If you want to be immersed in Chinese there are plenty of place in Beijing, it is up to you to resist hanging out with other foreigners and speaking your native language. I'll tell you from experience, it can be difficult because it feels so good to speak one's mother tongue. Even typing this puts a smile on my face.

If your will power is a little weak, like mine, you can attend a smaller university with fewer foreigners.

[hidden12345]

does anyone know of any good (advanced) programs in chongqing? How strong is the accent down there?

thanks..

[flameproof]

I have only rudimentary knowledge of Mandarin, but can't really agree that BJ should not be a good place. Most educated speak an OK Mandarin which is fairly close to standard. So, i would opt for BJ - or any other Beifang place.

They may have an accent, but I guess everybody has an accent and no accent is also a typical accent.

chongqing? They speak one of the 8 or so sub-dialects of Mandarin and it varies a bit. I get always confused by the pronounciation of the letter "H", which they pronounce sometimes as "F", like FA instead of HUA (flower), and FUNAN instead of HUNAN (that you find in Sichuan and Hunan).

I have no issue with BJ (in fact, I go there for a language week end of this month), but wonder if CQ is a very good choice (still better then HK or GZ)

[a'long]

Also consider that Beijing is twice as expensive as most other places in CHina, the language programs especialy are way over the top. Combine a bad price/value ratio with al lthe other problems with dialect, too many laowai, etc. I just could never suggest beijing to anyone watning to learn mandarin. after you've learned, it s a great place to go looking for a job, but for studying, I think you can do a whole lot better. just my 2C

[venture160]

Well, I took CET Harbin for 3 semesters, and I think its an awesome program.

Classes are customized to what you want

Class sizes are small

Teachers actually CARE about you progressing

LOTS of homework, intensive, it pushes you to study

Its been around since 1988, they know what they are doing

Curriculum is US designed, made for foreigners

live with Chinese, ALWAYS speaking CHinese.

although it is hard, there is still PLENTY of free time, I would have 2-3 hours of homework a day that if i didn't do I would be toast the next day in class. That being said, classes aren't the 8-530 deal like they are in most universities, they are more spread out and you have alot of free time. If you plan yourself well, you can be done with homework by 8pm and go out and enjoy a cold harbin night until 1-2 am and still make it to class with some sleep the next day at 10 am.

My vote is for Harbin, AWESOME program (if you can afford it)

[ChineseinChina]

Dalian has 3 main universities for studying Chinese.

1. Dalian University of Foreign languages.

City centre location, very convenient for shopping and nightlife. But limited greenery and sporting facilites. About 600 foreign language students each semester.

Slightly more expensive than the others. Maybe looking at $2400 a semester for tuition and accomodation. Of course still wips the pants off most Beijing universities.

2. Dalian University of Technolgy.

15 km from city centre in western suburbs. The most 'famous' university in Dalian, ranked in the top 20 in China. Chinese langauge program has around 250 students a semester about 25% are from North America or Europe. The campus is the nicest of the 3. Green and shady. Cost $2100 per semester tuition + accommodation

3. Dalian Maritime University.

Adjacent to the technology university, they have smaller program with around 60 students. If you apply through chineseinchina then your class size will be limited to a maximum of 12 students which is quite special for a university course.

The standard program at each university would be 20 hours a week of class plus extra HSK training if you register and pay a small fee. It's fairly rigorous but progress depends on your own attitude.

My tip (1) is to take the HSK exam each time, i.e. 3 times a year. Its not expensive to do and puts many people into a cramming mode for a couple of weeks just before which can give a valuable boost to your Chinese.

My tip (2) is to try to get into a class full of koreans and japanese so that you are the only English speaker. That way at break time you can chat in Chinese. Even better make freinds with some of these guys they are less likely than many Chinese to speak English to you.

Price wise Dalian is cheaper than Beijing but probably a bit more expensive than Chonqing. The accent is generally standard mandarin apart from some street peddlers and taxi drivers.

Our website has more general information about Dalian amd 2 of the universities which should be useful whether or not you apply through us.

[Diego]

1.) LOCATION- I want to study in the north. Clearer accents, taller women, we all have are reasons.. here are a few locales: Beijing, Dalian, Harbin, Qingdao, somewhere in Jilin.

I have studied in many University in China (north, south, west, est) and I pretty confident to tell u that the best teacher is the TV. Besides, I think u can find chinese people that can speak a good "Mandarin" in every city: teachers, university student... Just pick up a place with a quite good nitelife otherwise u r gonna hang on a tree very soon...

If u want to stay in the north: Dalian is good.... not that good as BJ for nitelife.. .

Good luck!

[redmini]

i have to say i disagree with the people who said beijing sucks for learning chinese.. it's the frigging capital of china and the only city where you can learn standard Putonghua. adding to that, the culture aspects of it will blow you away. how can you beat places like forbidden city, summer palace, tiananmen? yes, those are very touristy destinations but you need to visit at least once to understand the magnitude of china's history of civilisation. after that, explore all the little village places in the outskirts of beiijing's CBD where you move away from modern beijing to another world of old beijing. those places are absolutely incredible, the people there live such simple lives yet they are so content with it all. blows me away. makes you really think about life back home. no one in beijing (apart from the foreigners) can speak english, so whenever you're out, you gotta speak chinese anyway. and beijing is darn safe, i can actually say it's safer than other smaller cities, especially late at night.

anyhoo, back to learning chinese. people complain there are too many foreigners in beijing. well, duh. of course there is. beiijing's developing, there are so many opportunities here, why wouldnt people flock there to be part of all the excitement? but who told you to limit your social circle to only english-speaking foreigners?! you cant blame anyone but yourself if you only mix with your country's compatriots. there are ony two people in my class who can speak english, so im forced most (if not all) of the time to speak in chinese. and ive made a heap of local chinese friends, which i found to be truly THE most effective way of learning chinese, even past in-class learning. you have idea how fast my chinese has improved just by listening to them converse with each other. and chinese social culture is really quite an eye-opener sometimes, i have to say. very different from the western world.

im at BLCU this semester on a program thru China Unipath (www.chinaunipath.com). money very well spent, they're the cheapest on the net (believe me, i did ALL the research before i finally chose them). i got a bike and cellphone through China Unipath, plus i get taken on all these cultural activities thru them and they have extensive local knowledge, so they know the best places to visit. plus when i went to shanghai and tibet, i managed to get discounted plane and train tickets (30% off) that i couldnt get anywhere else by myself in beijing. highly recommended! check them out.

[stephanhodges]

I initially came for a summer program in Dalian, and I agree that the city is great. The local people were almost without exception very friendly and didn't price gouge. The only exception is right around the train station.

I placed through a company called Hyccchina. Their web site is: http://www.hyccchina.com/english/hycc/index13.htm

They give very good service. More importantly for you, they offer a very large free access database of schools and locations thoughout northern china.

Also, they have been great to deal with via email. It's owned by an Englishman, and the service level is at least four stars.

I've since moved up to Jilin University in Changchun. The climate up here is MUCH better than Beijing, and they have about 800 foreigners studying up here. It's hard to tell, since this is the largest single university in China. The campuses are huge. They have very advanced Chinese classes here also, sinc they get a large number of foreign scholarship students coming here for 4+years.

Nothing says you have to stay in one place for 6 years, either. If you're planning on developing business relationships, etc. then you should move around. Also, in that case, I really encourage you to contact the hyccchina company. They have some good insights in that direction as well.

I am NOT affiliated with the company, but they've given such high service, that I felt it was worth sounding a bit overenthusiastic.