Help required for improving pronunciation

[HashiriKata]

About a year ago I posted my reading for suggestions of improvement, so I'm posting one again now with the hope that my pronunciation has since somewhat improved.

For a change, this time I read the first few lines of 長恨歌. Please be frank in your comments as you can (I believe in "bitter medicine" ) and thank you for your time!

Text (from 长恨歌 by 白居易):

汉皇重色思倾国， 御宇多年求不得。

杨家有女初长成， 养在深闺人未识。

天生丽质难自弃， 一朝选在君王侧；

回眸一笑百媚生， 六宫粉黛无颜色。

春寒赐浴华清池， 温泉水滑洗凝脂；

侍儿扶起娇无力， 始是新承恩泽时。

云鬓花颜金步摇， 芙蓉帐暖度春宵；

春宵苦短日高起， 从此君王不早朝。

承欢侍宴无闲暇， 春从春遊夜专夜。

后宫佳丽三千人， 三千宠爱在一身。

HK读長恨歌.mp3

[skylee]

Perhaps you could also compare it with semantic nuance's reading

[HashiriKata]

Thanks for the suggestion, skylee! I did listen to SN and surprisingly she sounds just like a native Chinese speaker! Seriously, I listened to my own reading as well but that doesn't mean I can objectively hear myself as another person does.

By the way, are you still on holiday?

All the best from me, wherever you are!

[againstwind]

Hey,HK

I'm surprised for the accurate four tones in ur record, which impresses on me deeply.

i listened it carefully and here is a detailed analysis:

天生丽质难自弃， 一朝选在君王侧；

侧 is ce4, not se4.

侍儿扶起娇无力， 始是新承恩泽时。

I can hear that you have rolled up tongue. Good!

What you need to do is that keep your tongue in the same position and close mooth a little. Because your 儿 sounds like [ar], but we need [ər]. opening mouth smaller will be better, i think.

云鬓花颜金步摇， 芙蓉帐暖度春宵；

度 du4. not lu4

春宵苦短日高起， 从此君王不早朝。

feel little awkward(?)

i think you pronounced in the English way, which means you make a sonant . However, Chinese is aphonic (or devocalized? i don't know its technical term.) In another word, you needn't vibrate your throat when making the sound .

承欢侍宴无闲暇， 春从春遊夜专夜。

侍 shi4, not xu4 or xue4. (sounds like that)

后宫佳丽三千人， 三千宠爱在一身。

why ur 1st 千 is defferent from the 2nd which pronounced correctly?

千 qian1, not jian1.

Well, generally speaking, quite good, if you can read the poem more fluently and stop shortly at right positions according to the mean of it.

here is my record.

Hope helpful.

P.S.

I have also listened SN's record. I guess she read in some kind of ancient method, for she pronounced some words in a different way, not like Putonghua.

Anyway, I read according to Putonghua, though ancient reading way is not always the same to mine, which i don't know how to read.

长恨歌节选 Againstwind.wma

[semantic nuance]

I did listen to SN and surprisingly she sounds just like a native Chinese speaker!

Hehe:mrgreen: What do you mean by that?

[kudra]

Hehe What do you mean by that?

Let me attempt to read HK's mind, just for fun. I think he knows what it is supposed to sound like. I think he recognizes that his pronunciation is not identical to a native speaker's. However, there are going to be differences between native speakers too when reciting the same passage. For a learner it's not always obvious (to put it mildly) to know what are the next 2 or 3 most important aspects of one's imperfect pronunciation to work on.

I think he wanted input like againstwind, except her medicine probably wasn't "bitter enough for his taste."

[HashiriKata]

Thanks Kura, for reading my mind and making it appear more logical than it ever was!

A big thank to you, againstwind, for spending time on my reading. The things you pointed out are what a learner needs to know. Among them is one important point concerning my inconsistency in pronouncing 千. The inconsistency means that as learners of a new skill, what we do doesn't necessarily reflect what we know, not until what we do has been stablized, firmly established as a habit (= more practise! ). I've in fact recorded a few readings and found that all of them containing mistakes but the mistakes in each recording are all different!

I never read aloud Chinese poetry before and only learned the way how it is read from semantic nuance's, so I must thank her for the inspiration. I've also listened to your reading and found it equally interesting, but it seems much more difficult to imitate.

Lastly, I hope someone can tell me the meaning of 思 in 汉皇重色思倾国. I've got a vague feeling that the sentence may mean something like "The Han emperor valued beauties (= beauties that can bring down a regime?)" but what does 思 mean here??

[Quest]

againstwind (Mainland standard accent) and semantic nuance (Taiwan standard accent) both have good voices, do you guys work in the broadcasting industry?

againstwind, because of the 节选 extra bit, is that your own voice?

[studentyoung]

汉皇重色思倾国

what does 思 mean here??

The Han emperor loved to enjoy lust and always considered to look for beauties. 思 here means "consider".

Thanks!

[HashiriKata]

The Han emperor loved to enjoy lust and always considered to look for beauties. 思 here means "consider".

Thanks, studentyoung! So, I guess 思倾国 here can be translated as "(The emperor was) contemplating digging his own grave"

againstwind, because of the 节选 extra bit, is that your own voice?

From his post, I think it's his own voice. By 节选 I assume he meant what he read was only part of a longer poem.

[Quest]

He probably had a studio in his house, that's a broadcaster's voice

Just for fun, I recorded my own, too. kinda grassroot compared to againstwind's, and not as much emotion.

changhenge_mandarin_.wma

[Taibei]

Although it's often done, using a poem written in a language different than and, more to the point, pronounced very differently than modern standard Mandarin to practice the pronunciation of modern standard Mandarin has always seemed to me a strange approach.

[HashiriKata]

Although it's often done, using a poem....to practice the pronunciation of modern standard Mandarin has always seemed to me a strange approach.

I think you're off topic here but never mind, can you point out what features of the poem that may hinder people from pronouncing things correctly? Anything in this poem that has rendered it unsuitable for use to practise pronunciation?

[studentyoung]

"(The emperor was) contemplating digging his own grave"

My, my ~ ~! Your words remind me of another well-known verse, “牡丹花下死，做鬼也风流 Died for that peony-like beauty, my ghost is still considered as romantic.”

Thanks!

[sjcma]

风流 = romantic ?? :lol:

[Taibei]

can you point out what features of the poem that may hinder people from pronouncing things correctly? Anything in this poem that has rendered it unsuitable for use to practise pronunciation?

A lot depends on what is interpreted as "pronouncing things correctly." I'm looking at this from a different perspective.

No type of literature is more dependent upon sound and the specific music of a language than poetry. One thing that is certain about the poem you chose to recite, however, is that it was not written in modern standard Mandarin -- far from it. The sounds you use, while they might be right for Mandarin, are wrong for the poem itself because it just wasn't written with those sounds in mind. It's a little bit as if someone studying modern Italian chose to recite a sonnet by Petrarch in the original Latin by pronouncing it as if it were Italian. While that might not be exactly a crime and the poem would still have some value, finding a contemporary poem written in the desired language would be a more effective way to get to the heart of the sound of the language.

My advice to language learners: If you want to practice the pronunciation of modern standard Mandarin, try doing so with something actually written in that language.

[HashiriKata]

I'm looking at this from a different perspective.

Then, you should have started a different thread to display your knowledge. As it is clearly stated in my first post, I only borrowed the poem for checking my Mandarin pronunciation, and my reading was never intended to be a poem recital. I'm sure you know what I was doing, don't you? There're also 4 other readings by native speakers, and all read it in modern Mandarin. You wanted to tell them that they're all wrong and you know better, didn't you?

My advice to language learners: If you want to practice the pronunciation of modern standard Mandarin,...

My advice to you is if you want to give advice to others, first learn some modesty or your wisdom is going to be wasted. Secondly, keep to the point with your advice and don't offer what is uncalled for. This thread is asking specifically for comments on my pronunciation. Did you contribute anything in this regard?

[againstwind]

He probably had a studio in his house, that's a broadcaster's voice

You're kidding. Actually, I recorded with Cool Edit. Anyone knows this software?

Eventually heard Quset's voice. Haha~~~~~ Interesting. I think we should encourage people who upload their records and share with others. This is really a good way.

My advice to language learners: If you want to practice the pronunciation of modern standard Mandarin, try doing so with something actually written in that language.

winged words.

Indeed, classic or even ancient Chinese poems shouldn't have been read in modern standard Mandarin.

But if you do like, just read as you like it.

I do like reading poems. This Monday in my course on British Literature, I read the Bard of Avon's sonnet 18 without knowing if people in his time read like me. Anyway, I just like reading poems.

[Quest]

HK, can the poem be read in Vietnamese, can you post a Vietnamese version? Just curious about the sounds and traces.

[studentyoung]

My advice to language learners: If you want to practice the pronunciation of modern standard Mandarin, try doing so with something actually written in that language.

Well, I have no idea on the condition in Taibei, but in China mainland, 1~ 3 year old little babies are often taught to recite ‘Three Hundred Poems in Tang Dynasty 唐诗三百首’ as their enlightening education to train their sense of their mother tongue by their parents, especially in intellectual families, because these poems are well written with beautiful rhymes and easy enough for babies to read out loud, which are just the right points to help them practice the pronunciation. A lot of experts in early education say it helps young children to read (no matter to read out loud or to read in silence) more easily when they start to learn Chinese in primary school.

Hehe, anyway, my words are just for your reference.

Thanks!