Who said Beijing Sucks?

[1on1Mandarin]

In response to the numerous posts about Beijing being a horrible place to learn the language and live, I have to set the record straight:

1) The accents. I have lived in China for over 4 years now (all in Beijing), studied Chinese for nearly 8 years and have travelled to many different cities in China for business. Generally speaking, I would say that I have more experience and language abilities with interacting with real locals in these areas than most foreigners in China. Of all the places that I have been, I would say that Beijing is still the best suited for foreigners. While there are places in the North East like Harbin and Dalian, where the people speak Putonghua, they still have accents, and some, like Dalian even have their own dialect.

If people say that beijing people have heavy "er" accents, then they are correct. But to say that EVERYONE in Beijing has a beijing accent, then I would have to say that most of these opinions are based off of experience with cab drivers, older beijingers, store owners, etc. To be honest with you, Beijing is the best place to learn Chinese because EVERYONE speaks standard Mandarin. You don't have to deal with different dialects, which in many cases sound like a completely different language! If you interact with educated people and professionals you will have no problem. Obviously, if you spend all of your time is the taxis and alleys (Hutong), then you will encounter difficulties.

Harbin has relatively standard Mandarin, but Harbin is like a very small run down town. The last time I went there, about 1.5 years ago, they didn't even have a starbucks. Dalian, now, is a little bit better on the modern aspect, but the locals pretty much speak have a psuedo-dialect (half mandarin, half Dalianese).

You are going to find some great programs available in smaller cities like Harbin, Hangzhou, Dalian, etc. But you will still have a more difficult time understanding the common local speaking to you because virtually everywhere in China has their own dialect. You only have to deal with an "er" accent in Beijing.

2) The city is too big. Yes, Beijing is very big. But what city in China isn't? China is the most populated country in the world!

3) Too many foreingers. This can also be a good thing. Let me put it like this: sometimes you need some Americana. Having a large foreign network in the city you live in makes your transition much more pleasant. You have loads of foreign food, activities, organizations, healthcare, schools, music. Basically everything you would want in your home country you could probably find here in Beijing. A great example is with all the Europeans and their cheese and wine, granted not the greatest, but if you have the money you can find it. Sometimes I just want an american breakfast so I just go to Grandma's Kitchen. I think you get my point. With exception for Shanghai, you're gonna have very, very few options elsewhere.

4) Hard to get around. Use the subways.

5) Too expensive. Beijing can be expensive, but it doesn't have to be. If you find the right places rent can still be quite cheap. Now if you are comparing Beijing to less modern cities in China, yes, Beijing is more expensive, but there are also more extra curricular benefits available. This isn't Thailand, but it also isn't Tokyo. For a westerner, Beijing is still cheap.

6) Longterm development. Now if you are looking to stay in China for not only language but possible employment, I cannot emphasize this enough. Contacts in China is everything! Beijing and Shanghai are the two best places in China for that. In Shanghai, however, you have to deal with Shanghainese, which is a completely different dialect like Cantonese. Beijing is full of not only foreigners, but also most business in China has to go through Beijing somehow or another because it is the capital; so if you look, you can find excellent Beijing contacts that can help you in other places in China.

Generally speaking, Beijing is a very international city, that is very difficult to find almost anywhere in the world. How international, you ask? Some cab companies are providing English classes for their drivers so that they can provide better service for the upcoming Olympics. You are not going to find a better place in China to study the language and to work on your longterm development at the same time. Simply put, having the options available is always a plus. I don't want to have to live in a place where it is virtually impossible to find a cup of coffee.

Now who said Beijing sucks?

[wannabeafreak]

I went to Beijing before and I think its a very dirty city. I prefer nice and clean Hong Kong.

[gato]

2) The city is too big. Yes, Beijing is very big. But what city in China isn't? China is the most populated country in the world!

4) Hard to get around. Use the subways.

I think people were referring to physical size, not population size. Number 2 and 4 go together. The subway doesn't go to a lot of places.

[roddy]

True, if you can't cope without Starbucks, easy access to a range of Western food, close proximity to foreigners, international schools and hospitals and cheese and wine tastings, then Beijing is probably your only option. Everybody else has a wider range of choices though.

Smaller cities are less viable long-term options due to a relative lack of long-term opportunities, but for a six month to two year stay to study or work, they can be great. I spent a year in that 'very small run down town' Harbin, and had a fantastic time - great people (and the educated, professional people everywhere are capable of speaking standard Chinese), fantastic eating, 'western' stuff available if necessary - just like any number of other cities. And a year or two somewhere provincial will mean you both appreciate the amenities of a bigger city, and know how easily you can manage without them.

Beijing doesn't suck - it might be easier to wind up spending all your money and time on doing 'foreign' stuff, which the majority of people on here aren't intending to do, but that's as much to do with willpower as the city itself. However, the other options are hardly as bleak as you paint them. Having spent two years in provincial cities (Wuxi, Harbin) and four in Beijing, I'd query how much a succession of business trips would inform you about what it would be like to spend a year there studying or working.

[1on1Mandarin]

Roddy,

Don't get me wrong, I am not saying that smaller (provincial) cities are inferior, nor am I discounting their effectiveness for language learners. I am sure that many people, like yourself, have wonderful experiences. It bothers me, however, when I hear people complaining about "er"-factor and expenses in Beijing. In China, you're gonna have to either deal with accents or deal with dialects; personally, I would prefer the former, which, quite honestly, is something you will deal with anywhere. Students should understand, however, that there is probably more standard putonghua opportunities in Beijing than any city in China, and the world for that matter.

To Gato: The geographical size of a city is generally determined by its population. #4. yes, the subways don't go everywhere, but a combo of subways and cabs can get you to many places.

[liuzhou]

I would say that I have more experience and language abilities with interacting with real locals in these areas than most foreigners in China.

Congratulations! Give yourself a medal.

sometimes you need some Americana.

It might come to you as some surprise, but not all "foreigners" are American.

[wushijiao]

It might come to you as some surprise, but not all "foreigners" are American.

Aha, but not all Americana is consumed by Americans!

[Qiuyue]

The city is too big. Yes, Beijing is very big. But what city in China isn't?

There are plenty of them, plenty. You just have to go outside Beijing to discover them

Contacts in China is everything! Beijing and Shanghai are the two best places in China for that.

Perhaps if you wanna work in Beijing or Shanghai, bur not so much if you wanna work in Jinan, Guangdong, Ningbo or somewhere else. Then that´s where u need your contacts!

True, if you can't cope without Starbucks, easy access to a range of Western food, close proximity to foreigners, international schools and hospitals and cheese and wine tastings, then Beijing is probably your only option

Certainly not your only option! Have u heard of Shanghai? Or Hangzhou? Or HK?

[liuzhou]

Beijing is the best place to learn Chinese because EVERYONE speaks standard Mandarin.

Obviously, if you spend all of your time is the taxis and alleys (Hutong), then you will encounter difficulties.

Isn't that somewhat contradictory or are you telling us not to mix with the lower classes?

But of course, you

have more experience and language abilities with interacting with real locals in these areas than most foreigners in China.

Sorry I'm too stupid and inexperienced to understand (despite having been here 10 years, living in different places.)

[yonitabonita]

Isn't that somewhat contradictory or are you telling us not to mix with the lower classes?

But of course, you

Quote:

have more experience and language abilities with interacting with real locals in these areas than most foreigners in China.

Sorry I'm too stupid and inexperienced to understand (despite having been here 10 years, living in different places.)

Not really playing fair to put words in the OP's mouth. I can see no intention to make any sort of comment on 'the lower classes'. Nor did the OP say that s/he has more experience than every foreigner.

On another point though, I'm interested to know why it is that the OP thinks that s/he has "more experience and language abilities with real locals than most foreigners in China"? What do you assume most foreigners in China are doing here?

Just about anywhere I ever go I have encounters with fellow Westerners who speak with the assumption that they are: more intimate with the local area/ have travelled more/ are more 'hard core'/ have more of the inside scoop/ have more local friends ...(list goes on)... than 'most other foreigners' . More often than not, 'most other foreigners' are pretty much just like them.

Despite what our mothers may have told us, we're not special.

Yonita

[heymister]

Hello,

In planning my study in China for early next year, I decided against starting with Beijing. Instead, I am considering two smaller locales - namely, Harbin or Dalian.

Harbin, to it's benefit, is reputed to have a close to "standard" variation of Mandarin.

Dalian, on the other hand, has a branch of the Taipei Language Institute ( TLI ) - the school I am most leaning toward for quality instruction.

However, this post informs me that there is a completely different dialect in Dalian and that the differences goes far being the pronunciation of "er." Is this true? Please advise.

Appreciatively,

Mike

[TaiwaneseColin]

I can't help but think a Taiwan is one of your best bets for learning Mandarin. There is the issue of Taiwanese, but it is not that big a deal, because every person under sixty (and most over) that I have met speaks Mandarin. There is an accent (zh, ch, sh sounds pronunced z, c, s), but that is true for everywhere in China. As far as people speaking English to you and not Chinese, I have not really had that problem--just speak a bit of Mandarin to let them know I can and it stays that way. (That may be a bit more of a problem in Taipei). The winter is also much better than in Beijing or Harbin or Dalian:mrgreen:

I have heard the food is better in the Mainland, but I think it is pretty good here. Another point is that they use traditional Chinese here, which I think is good to learn first... So, I may be (am) bias, but I think Taiwan is a pretty great spot to come to learn Mandarin!

I have read other people's posts, and Taiwan seems to have a reputation as a bad place to lean Mandarin, but I cannot figure out why...Although I hear people behind me say things like this a lot:

Oh! Ni3 kan4! Wai4guo2ren2! Wo3 xiang3 yao4 gen1 ta1 jiao1 ge peng2you3, ke3shi4 wo3 ying1wen2 bu4 hao3...

[Lu]

I agree with you on almost all of this (especially the weather :-) ), but this:

There is an accent (zh, ch, sh sounds pronunced z, c, s), but that is true for everywhere in China.

is not really true. In the north of China people do differentiate between zhichishi and zicisi, and also between r- and l-. Learning Chinese only in Taiwan can very easily give you a bit of a lazy accent in this aspect. Even if you don't completely loose your retroflexes you still get to pronounce the sh- a bit like the x-.

Maybe it's best to go to some nothern city first, and after one or two years come to Taiwan to enjoy the weather and the nice people :-)

[a'long]

Uhhhh, 1on1mandarin, I hate to break it to you, but in every Chinese city over a million people (which is most of them) you have a plethora of coffee shops serving espresso, mocha lattes, steaks, burgers, and all manner of western food. You may have missed them as they don't say "Starbucks" or "Outback Steakhouse" on them, but trust me, they are there. I have been in many cities and never had any trouble finding coffee or western food. And saying that after 4 years you have more epxerience than most foreigners is just rediculous, it's just the kind of thing that someone who's been here for 4 years would say....

[TaiwaneseColin]

Lu, I ment the fact that there is an accent (even Beijing has the "r" huayin, as OP mentioned), not the zh, ch, sh-->z, c, s part.

And don't get me wrong, I think the Mainland would be pretty sweet too, and I really want to go one day.

It is just starnge to me that I get asked nearly every day by someone why I came to Taiwan and not the Mainland.

Also, the sh is not like an "x" (but "xu..", yeah, similar), but rather like an "s"... So 社 and 色 are pronunced the same. Funny story though, my math teacher really tires to pronunce his Mandarin correctly... but he goes to far, like saying "shuo3 yi3" and such. And once I said "she2tou2" for tonge, and my host mom corrected me and said it was se2 tou2

[Dreamer]

Beijing Sucks?? Yes i admit it CAN b dirty and polluted..may take time 2 adjust..but i LOVE BEIJING!! its now my 2nd home hehe..

[Qingdao Frank]

That Dalian people speak some bizarre dialect of mandarin is absolute balony.

Spent a year in Dalian and now a year in Qingdao. Have also spent 5 weeks living in Beijing. The Mandarin in Beijing is the standard, that is true, apart from the pirate like 'err' that pops up from time to time. But Dalian people speak exactly the same the only difference is that there are about 5 common words where you have a choice of saying putonghua or Dalian hua. The most used one would be sha3 (putonghua) can be replaced by biao1 (Dalian hua).

Qingdao is pretty close, maybe has 10-15 local words. No worse than a londoner living in Birmingham though.

Dalian is chock ablock with Starbucks and McDonalds. Bars/ Clubs there are about 10 good ones as opposed to 100 odd in Beijing. But in Dalian you might be able to afford to go out 3 times a week rather than twice in Beijing.

I work for NCUK teaching maths in Qingdao (www.ncuk.ac.uk). We have a school in Beijing and the teachers there generally apply to transfer to Qingdao or Suzhou each year. Just more comfortable to live in. I recomend Dalian or Qingdao or even Kunming for Chinese study.

[mrtoga]

I am with Frank on dialect, although I must agree with the other poster who said that Dalianers often miss their "h" out of shi, zhi, sha etc, and if you go down to Lvshun (about 40 mins from Dalian) they definitely speak dodgy, however 90% of people you meet speak fairly standard putonghua.

Now I don't like to be confrontational, but I have to say that Beijing truly does suck! The subway is old, inconvenient and closes early. The whole city is a construction site, Grandma's Kitchen and all the bars in Wudaokou you can go stick up your jumper - there are better places in a bunch of Chinese provincial cities.

No sea, no mountains, dirty air, nightmare to get anywhere in the rush hour, I would say to the original poster that he should really get out more - other cities in China are really a breath of fresh air after Beijing!

[ChineseinChina]

The people in Dalian's 'talk' is pretty hard to separate from standard mandarin. Dalian hua

exists with some taxi drivers but against that there also some people in Dalian who cant speak any Dalian hua, they just dont really know it because everyone in there family speaks putonghua the whole time.

What follows is self promotion but it should be of interest to people considering studying in Dalian.

Chinese-in-China (www.chinese-in-china.com) now has 5 different programs running in the city. We are running both university and private langauge school courses as well as a work/study program.

To compare us against a Beijing based organisation the main difference is that of cost and possibly of value for money. Our school founders are all Europeans based in China for several years now and it is bemusing at some of the sums of moneys that university programs via agents seem to ask for.

For one semester at Dalian Maritime University ( now a key comprehensive university in north China) our program fee is US $1949. This includes 18 or 19 weeks of tuition, accommodation in a private bedroom shared apartment just off campus and our full service including pre-departure assitance and package, airport pick-up, 2 day city orientation, organised weekly social/cultural activity and monthly excursion. Furthermore at our urging the university has agreed to limit class sizes to a maximum of 12 students for Chinese-In-China students.

Some students go to Beijing and love it, I have nothing against it just like living in Dalian/Qingdao type coastal cities with blue skies and beaches for a much lower cost. From Dalian you can easily catch the train and spend the weekend in Beijing looking round the Summer Palace and Forbidden temple then jump on the train and head back in time for class monday morning.

The best thing is to consider as many study places as possible and make an informed descision. Studying in China can at its best can be a great experience and you really can make rapid progress if you are strict with yourself.

[Manuel]

I have been in Beijing and I am in Wuxi now. In Wuxi there are not many foreigners and I consider this a good thing for someone learning Chinese. It is also cheaper to live here, there are less distractions and it is easier to make Chinese friends. Having been in both big and small cities, I personally prefer small cities.