还是 and 或者

[goldie]

Can someone help me figure out a good way to explain when to use 'hai2shi4' and when to use 'huo4zhe3'? i've tried, but i get muddled up.

for example you can say : 这是你的还是我的? but to me it sounds a bit strange if you say : 这是你的或者我的. in fact, the meaning seems to change, but i can't work out why or how.

goldie

[Quest]

One's a question, one's a statement?

[cjbaker]

还是 is used to form questions, and 或者 is used in statements. For example, to ask, "Do you like noodles or rice?", say 你喜欢吃面条还是米饭？To say, "I want to go eat or sleep", say 我想去吃饭或者睡觉。

As for your examples, 1. 这是你的还是我的? makes sense, while 2. 这是你的或者我的 doesn't really, just like in English: 1. Is this yours or mine? 2. This is yours or mine.

[goldie]

that makes sense. in fact, i did a search in speaking and listening and there is a post about this too. although i'm not sure if the whole thing has been fully explored. but if the rule is question and statemant, then it can probably always be explained.

for example, my student said "我每天打电话给我妈妈，我妹妹还是我朋友" i said that it should be 或者 but i couldn't work out why. now i know. thanks

[HashiriKata]

but if the rule is question and statemant, then it can probably always be explained.

I'm afraid life can be more complicated than that. The following 還是 is in a well-formed statement:

不論透過努力還是金錢都是得不到。

[cjbaker]

I'm afraid life can be more complicated than that. The following 還是 is in a well-formed statement:

不論透過努力還是金錢都是得不到。

"Question structures" can definitely be embedded in a declarative sentence like this, but I think the meaning of the embedded part is still closely related to questioning "which one?". If we translate this sentence to English as "Whether by hard work or by money, there's just no way to get it," I think that "whether" conveys the "question" meaning, where if we were talking about an embedded "statement", it would be something like "Even if it's by hard work or money, there's just no way to get it."

Of course, we're still used to using one word "or" in English, which does make it hard to learn. Good thing we're not talking about a language like French, which encodes this difference as a modal inflection in the verb!

[geek_frappa]

One's a question, one's a statement?

help language learners. don't mock them, moderator.

[HashiriKata]

"Question structures" can definitely be embedded in a declarative sentence like this, but I think the meaning of the embedded part is still closely related to questioning "which one?". If we translate this sentence to English as "Whether by hard work or by money, there's just no way to get it," I think that "whether" conveys the "question" meaning, where if we were talking about an embedded "statement", it would be something like "Even if it's by hard work or money, there's just no way to get it."

I understand what you're saying but honestly, this is either fallacious or simply waffling. Whether it's fallacious or waffling, it won't do any good to your understanding of the question under discussion.

PS: Try translating my sentence in italics correctly and my message may eventually come home to you.

(A hint: use 或者 for the 1st part, and 还是 for the 2nd, even if no question is anywhere involved).

[cjbaker]

I understand what you're saying but honestly, this is either fallacious or simply waffling. Whether it's fallacious or waffling, it won't do any good to your understanding of the question under discussion.

PS: Try translating my sentence in italics correctly and my message may eventually come home to you.

(A hint: use 或者 for the 1st part, and 还是 for the 2nd, even if no question is anywhere involved).

Maybe I wasn't clear in my explanation. Here's a PDF explaining embedded questions with "whether/or" and how to identify them in English. It also illustrates other types of embedded questions using Wh- words, which might also be useful for Chinese, since sentences like "我不知道教室在哪儿" and "我不记得他喜不喜欢" are also declarative sentences, despite having embedded question structures (哪儿 and V不V). Here's a more "scientific" paper that brings up the topic of embedded questions in Chinese.

[HashiriKata]

cjbaker, I've had a brief look at the links you gave and I don't think either supports what you was saying. Anyway, I can't do more than just to let you know. So, let's move on...

Could someone please confirm whether the use of 还是 in the following sentences is correct? If you think it is not, how would you correct these sentences?

我没有看见张山还是李斯。

你看见张山还是李斯了吗？

要是你看见张山还是李斯的话，请告诉我。

(These sentences are not mine, by the way )

[goldie]

i would say the first one doens't sound like it should be 还是 but the last two seem alright.

[Quest]

Quote:

One's a question, one's a statement?

help language learners. don't mock them, moderator.

Nobody was? I added a ? to make it less certain, not to mock, genius.