Realistic expectations?

[djwebb2004]

I am afraid my Chinese learning suffers from intermittent crises. I am starting to think I will never speak/understand/read/write Chinese totally fluently; maybe I will never get to be a Dashan-equivalent. The more I learn, the further the ultimate goal recedes from me, and yet I have met many foreigners who spoke absolutely perfect English, so why shouldn't I aim to totally master Chinese? Am I setting the goal too high? Is it really possible for an English person to totally master Chinese? Have other people here had crises of confidence in their ultimate language goals?

[calibre2001]

All of us would ultimately want to be fluent in Chinese, probably than native Chinese speakers themselves! Alas, stumbling upon such learning blocks is a fact of life. Such is the way of life. But truth is, these realisations will actually help form our learning. It is a period where your knowledge consolidates and empowers you subconsciously like a metamorphosis.

I would breakdown my ultimate goals into small realistic goals - stage 1: can i understand what that family is talking among themselves , stage 2: can i udnerstand 100% of that Winter Sonata dubbed in Mandarin, something like that..

Remember , never give up and always enjoy it! Makes it alot less painful.

[bjfall]

I would breakdown my ultimate goals into small realistic goals - stage 1: can i understand what that family is talking among themselves , stage 2: can i udnerstand 100% of that Winter Sonata dubbed in Mandarin, something like that..

Remember , never give up and always enjoy it! Makes it alot less painful.

Thanks for the encouragement! Lately, I've been feeling the same way as djwebb2004. I learned Chinese in a proper language university for a year and was happy with the level I reached. Now I'm working and feel that since I stopped going to school, my level has plateauted. I try to study on my own, but with my long work hours, I'm not consistent.

According to sinosplice.com, I'm in the intermediate stage and to make it to the advanced stage, I need

a lot of hard work and self-criticism ... as long as prolonged, intense exposure to Chinese. Everyday exposure is not enough.

Is anybody out there in (or was in) a similar position? What advice can you give? Thanks!

[wushijiao]

Have other people here had crises of confidence in their ultimate language goals?

Yes.

The more I learn, the further the ultimate goal recedes from me, and yet I have met many foreigners who spoke absolutely perfect English, so why shouldn't I aim to totally master Chinese?

I have very similar feelings. I've been trying to figure out the next steps that I'll need to improve my Chinese.

I think one thing to keep in mind is that Europeans who speak great English: A) speak languages related to English B) have been exposed to English-speaking media for decades C) have had formal schooling in English for many years (while most Chinese learners start much later in life, around 18 usually).

Is it really possible for an English person to totally master Chinese?

That's a good question. I hope that it is possible, but it will just take a longer time frame than I had originally thought.

[HashiriKata]

I hope that it is possible, but it will just take a longer time frame than I had originally thought.

I think it's possible,even for English speaker. Time is one factor but dedication is even more important (= a conscious effort to "be at it" at all time, and not just "be there"). Such dedication can be so freaky that the vast majority of learners end up questioning themselves whether it is worth it.

(I was going to list "opportunity" as another requirement but the dedication I mentioned above would ensure the existence of "opportunity".)

[carlo]

Such dedication can be so freaky that the vast majority of learners end up questioning themselves whether it is worth it.

Absolutely, I've asked this question many times. I think this is a very common experience among learners of all languages.

IMHO you need at least 10 years of 'freaky dedication' and daily experience of the language to get to a level where you can more or less think of yourself as 'near-native'. It may even take longer for languages as unrelated as English and Chinese. And even then it's like the saying 行百里者半九十, whenever you think you've come 90% of the way something happens that reminds you that you're still stuck in the middle.

[somedude]

You can't be totally fluent in both languages in my opinion. Just think about all the little things in english that foreigners dont pick up on until many many years of living in an english speaking society.

[wannabeafreak]

You can't be totally fluent in both languages in my opinion. Just think about all the little things in english that foreigners dont pick up on until many many years of living in an english speaking society.

Thats because they live in communties with their own people occupying every house and shop. Their English contact is minimal.

[wrbt]

Hey spy novels there is often some master CIA operative or assasin who is only 32 years old but can speak five languages fluently without accent so he can pass as a native of various places.

If they can master that while also training for guns, explosives, lock picking, martial arts, racecar driving, fighter jet and helicopter piloting, generally sneaking around quietly, and (of course) computer hacking skills... how hard can it be to be fluent in two languages?

[calibre2001]

Can we get straight the definition of fluent? I get the impression that being fluent in Chinese here entails being vocally indistinguishable from a native Chinese speaker regardless of ethnic/country origins. Whilst that is to some extent true, I think there's a cultural aspect too i.e. having and possibly embracing the mindset of native Chinese is also a requirement. Have we overlooked this?

[roddy]

Discussions like this frequently end up with the question 'but what does fluent mean?' On one hand I find it annoying as it's not the real question. However, I can also see that without the definition of what is meant by fluent, or in this case 'totally fluently' and 'to totally master', the question itself is tricker to answer.

For me, it's being able to handle all general situations that any (educated?) member of the population can expect to deal with, with virtually no effort on your part or the part of the listeners. It doesn't mean absolutely no effort as even native speakers will have communication failures at times due to accents (I've had major communication problems with cab drivers in York and chip shop staff in Glasgow), unfamiliar vocab, hangovers, etc. I'm thinking shopping, discussing news, relationships,etc. It does not include anything that a native speaker would normally expect to do only after training / acquiring particular knowledge - that, for me, goes off into the realm of professional competence, not linguistic fluency.

Is embracing a Chinese mindset necessary? I don't think so, it's possible to be speaking damned fine Chinese and still breaching every cultural taboo you come across. I think the course of learning the language is going to involve coming to understand it - I'd certainly hope so - but you can still speak Chinese and act foreign.

To speak to the original question - I believe it's entirely possible. It's only a language after all, not a transcendent state of being. However, to dwell on total mastery as a goal is (or would be for me at least) very discouraging. You're much better off measuring yourself against where you were six months ago, and where you want to be in another six months.

[djwebb2004]

I would like to master Chinese as much as Germans/Dutch/Scandinavians master English, but it is a tall order. On the question of "fluency", it is an awkward word, as it only means "flowing" and not "broken" French/English/Chinese/whatever. The focus is on the flowing and easy nature of the language produced, and not on its native or near-native quality. And Chinese 流利 has the same meaning. So, according to one definition, "fluent" Chinese could be "conversational Chinese" if most ordinary topics for conversation could be discussed in a non-halting, easy-flowing way. [Actually, I think "conversational Chinese" is quite hard to attain; not at all the same as conversational French or Spanish: so I wouldn't want to put down people with conversational Chinese, like myself!] But to get to the stage where you can read books without the dictionary.... ie read fluently, as well as speak fluently - that is hard!

[wrbt]

For me, it's being able to handle all general situations that any (educated?) member of the population can expect to deal with, with virtually no effort on your part or the part of the listeners

Yup, and I'm not even sure on the educated part. If someone from China came to the United States and was able to sound exactly the same as a school dropout who works at the local convenience store I'd surely assume they were born and raised in the United States. That must qualify as fluent.

I also don't think fluency has anything to do with sounding indistinguishable from a native speaker, as I've had college professors teaching advanced sciences who have lived in the United States for over 40 years but still have slight Eastern European accents... they are surely fluent in English.

[carlo]

I once read about a standard of fluency called "High Acceptability", which kind of means that you are not immediately identifiable as a non-native speaker by native speakers.

This is interesting, because there are accents that are neither fluent nor grammatically perfect but are not associated with "foreignness" (eg, child speak). It would seem that phonology is more important than vocabulary or fluency for passing this 'test'. Of course most learners don't mind having some trace of a foreign accent, but nobody wants to sound like a five-year old, so phonology by itself won't take you very far.

Incidentally, I maybe have (?) met someone who was once involved in intelligence work. And yes, this person spoke Italian (and his native language) with no accent whatsoever. So I'm pretty sure that with the right kind of motivation and training it can be done. Maybe next time I should ask him to jump from the BOC building in Pudong.

[djwebb2004]

I once read about a standard of fluency called "High Acceptability", which kind of means that you are not immediately identifiable as a non-native speaker by native speakers.

Well, I don't think I will reach that particular definition of High Acceptability, but I find now that Chinese people can understand what I am saying, which is better than the very first time I arrived in China and I spoke Chinese to someone and she thought I was speaking English!! Also Chinese friends who are used to my accent can understand everything I am saying but I get the sneaky feeling that it is partly because they are used to me and my accent that they can understand so much of what I am saying; I don't think an average peasant would understand quite as much. I suppose I will settle for being well understood by educated Chinese people who are generally a little more attuned to foreigners' Chinese, but that is not the same thing as being mistaken for a native speaker...

[Gulao]

I tend to agree with carlo on this. I don't think it's possible for a person to judge their own fluency in a language. Only a fluent speaker could make this judgement. Some fluent speakers will make this judgment differently depending on their own fluency level, tolerance and background. For instance, I could probably have a time and a half talking to a Chinese 10-year-old, and he'd probably find me no less capable of the language than he is. On the other-hand, a 40-year-old xenophobic Chinese grammarian would find my American manner and English paradigms to be repulsive, and label me non-fluent.

And I don't think an ability to "flow" is necessarily the most important part of fluency. Certainly, a certain speed and rhythm is achievable by fluent speakers, but even the smartest lose their trains of thought, stumble, slip and even forget vocabulary. I, especially, will pause indefinitely mid-utterance while I search in vain for that word, the one that will convey just the right meaning. Does this make me non-fluent in English? I hope not, because it's my first language!

[Green Pea]

djwebb,

Learning Chinese is a long, hard road. It will take many, many years with lots of ups and downs. It's not a linear progression either. You need to create the habit of speaking Chinese, not the habit of speaking English. Then, one day, you'll wake up one morning and your Chinese level will have jumped by leaps and bounds.

But, let me quote you from another recent thread:

Well, let me first say that I am not one of those foreigners who refuses to speak English or objects to people coming up and trying to speak English. After all, it's my native language, and so it is no sweat to say a few words. But as someone else said in this thread, the other side of this is that it is easy to slip into more English than I had intended.

In my opintion, the reason your Chinese is suffering is because you are not speaking enough Chinese. You are letting false friends sucker you into speaking English. They trick you into pretending to speak English poorly and then switch to reasonable English later on. You are trying for give and take, but your friends are just taking so much that you are embarrassed (your word) to speak Chinese. They are not your friends. If you came to China to learn Chinese, then you've got to speak Chinese. You must decide which is more important: learning Chinese or making friends. If you can find people who are genuinely give and take, then fine. Unfortunately, you are trying to use them to learn Chinese, too. They are just better at the game than you are.

Now, I have no issue with you using friends to create Chinese speaking and learning opportunities. The issue is that you need to play the game harder and tougher. You need to recognise it's a game and don't be the patsy.

This is why I was one of those foreigners who used to refuse to speak English to people. It just made it easier to avoid the English false friends and created the habit of speaking Chinese. When I was in my learning stage several years ago, I didn't even respond to "Hello". I do now, because I am comfortable enough with my level. In other words, there will be plenty of friends to speak English with AFTER you reach your fluency goals.