shei, shui, shuei - any difference ?

[lokki]

The word for "who" or "anyone", 谁 shei2, alternatively pronounced shui2, has me scratching my head in confusion lately, in particular the way it is used in Pimsleur.

Early on 谁 is introduced in the meaning of "who" and pronounced shei2. Later in the course it comes up as "anyone" and is suddenly pronounced shui2. At least I think it is the same word there. I can´t find any others in the dictionary that would fit.

Several things I am wondering about:

1. Is it in fact the same 谁 shei2 / shui2 as earlier on in the course. If not, what hanzi is this ?

2. Why the switch in pronunciation from shei2 to shui2 ? Is shei2 more frequent when it means "who", and shui2 when it means "anyone", or is it indifferent ?

3. In the second case, why is the pronunciation a very clear shui2, and not shuei2 ? According to what I think I have picked up the "-ui" ending is usually pronounced "-uei", and this is certainly very noticeable in the word 水 shu(e)i3 "water", as pronounced in the same Pimsleur course, apparently by the same speakers that later say this shui2 without a hint of an e in it. In another audio-course I have heard shuei2 for "who", with a very clear e.

Very grateful if "anyone" (shei/shui/shuei ) can help untie this knot and clear up my confusion a bit ?

[freefall]

I'm a learner too so I may be mistaken.

Shui2 and shei2 have the same meaning. Shui2 is used more in the south. When I hear it pronounced it sounds identical to shui3 水 but with a different tone, so I don't know about the lack of the e sound.

[nipponman]

You have to learn something that I am still learning to this very day, there is a lot of room for flexibility within the rigidness of chinese. Pronunciation is no different. Make sure you understand this flexibility and make sure YOUR pronunciation is standard, nobody likes a gaijin (wai4 guo2 ren2) tryna sound cool by mimicking certain dialectal nuances that they don't understand. So to recap, you can say shui2 shei2 or even shuei2 and they all mean shei2.

[nrtm81]

Do Beijing people ever pronounce 谁 as shui2?

It doesn't make sense to have two different pronunciations for "who". shui2 (what a 客家话 speaker would pronounce) sounds like the bad pronunciation of shei2. Does anyone switch from shei2 into shui2 in daily conversation? I would think it's one or the other but not used interchangeably by the individual speaker unless they're trying to be funny.

[againstwind]

Agree with nipponman.

BTW, shui is precisely shuei. The latter should have been the standard writing.

[Lu]

In answer to your questions:

1. Yes, and also the same character.

2. I don't know why the shift in pronounciation is, maybe to teach you that there are two forms. You should stick to one, though, if you pronounce 'who' as shei2, then 'anyone' is also shei2. As to frequency, I usually hear shei2, rarely shui2. But I guess it differs per region.

3. Shui2 is pronounced the same as shui3 (water), but with a different tone. So also /shuei/. (This might also be a more logical spelling, but in Hanyu pinyin it's still spelled 'shui'.)

[nipponman]

3. Shui2 is pronounced the same as shui3 (water), but with a different tone. So also /shuei/. (This might also be a more logical spelling, but in Hanyu pinyin it's still spelled 'shui'.)

Actually, I can understand where he is coming from. Depending on the tone of the word it may be from differently. xiu1 for example is sheeoo. But, xiu4 can be sheeoo or sheeoh.

My romanization is a little crappy but you get the picture. It doesn't matter how you

pronounce it though, as long as its correct. Just like in English, near my region people don't pronounce words like in standard English (who does?) when we say 5 we don't say fIve we say fAve like in Avenue. Its just something that happens and you can mimick it if your good, but if your like the rest of us just go with the standard. Thats the reason there is a standard, b/c no one uses it )

Oh by the way, the next sentence I write is really informative so you may wanna read it:

I just wanted to use the new spoiler tags[DICT]Spoiler: anything that would give away pertinent plot information to a video game, movie, novel etc. Usually Reserved for internet forum use.[/DICT]

[qingfeng]

shei2 and shui2 are the same. shei2 is the "official" pronounciation in putonghua, while shui2 is commonly used by people from Northern China.

As for shui and shuei, "ui" is the correct written form of "uei", the pronounciation is the same, as you pointed out.

[lokki]

3. Shui2 is pronounced the same as shui3 (water), but with a different tone. So also /shuei/. (This might also be a more logical spelling, but in Hanyu pinyin it's still spelled 'shui'.)

Thanks Lu, for adressing each of my points in detail. A bit of a mystery still remains around this last one, since I can swear blind there is not the slightest hint of an e in the shui2 I hear on the recording, while apparently the same team of speakers have a very clear e in their rendering of shui3.

I certainly wouldn't find it strange at all for variations like these to exist between different regions, or to hear them spoken by different individuals in the street, assuming I ever get to a level where I can pick up anything at all of what I happen to overhear.

But we are talking about a prestigious language teaching programme here, supposedly setting a standard for you to imitate. In that context I am still a little perplexed about this.

[adrianlondon]

Just cos you hear something doesn't mean it should be imitated

Not sure how good this analogy is, but I'll give it anyway.

Take the English word (ok, two words) "Don't". If said on its own, the "t" is very sharp. When said as part of "don't know" you can hardly hear the "t". The mouth goes some way to forming the sound, but never completes it.

Most times, you don't bother at all, and just say "dunno". As a foreigner, if you've never been introduced to "dunno" you're not going to understand it at all, so it needs to be taught and should be part of lesson recordings. However, if as an English learner you say, very clearly, slowly and precisely "dunno", it's gonna (there's another one!) sound strange.

Those who are learning English should stick to "don't know" until they can say "dunno" in a relaxed enough fashion for it to sound natural.

Summary : just because you hear something and need to understand it doesn't mean it sounds good for you to copy it. Not quite the same as shei/shui, but I never say "shui". If I want to soften the tone, I'll say "shei-a?".

I do, however, use "neige" and "zheige" often (instead of "zhe ge" and "na ge" for those who don't know).

As an aside (yes, I waffle, I know), a few days ago I saw an American chap talking to a chinese friend. He was using as much Beijing "er-hua" as he could. Great - all that education and you sound like a taxi driver. I was waiting for him to gob on the floor. Yes, it's momentatily impressive, but it just didn't seem right somehow.

[HashiriKata]

As an aside (yes, I waffle, I know), a few days ago I saw an American chap talking to a chinese friend. He was using as much Beijing "er-hua" as he could.

I may be wrong but I think "er-hua" seems to lend itself very well to some kind of American accent. Each time I say "nǎr" or "nàr", I always think of the American way of saying "fourth floor" with the "r" accentuated.

[asail]

聽起來像是發音有無捲舌的問題，我用從小學校裡教中文的方式來解釋一下，提供一個不同的觀點來了解這個問題。"誰"這個字在中文注音符號裡面的注釋是"ㄕㄨㄟˊ"，但是因為地區的不同，有些人(像我這個生長在台灣的人)因為從小口音的關係，會將它發音的很接近"ㄙㄟˊ"或"ㄙㄨㄟˊ"。這個問題主要就在"ㄕ"和"ㄙ"，一個發音有捲舌，一個沒有。類似的還有"ㄓ"和"ㄗ"，"ㄔ"和"ㄘ"等等，都是發音有沒有很清楚捲舌會形成的問題。在中國大陸和台灣的中文，聽起來的主要差異就在這裡。另外還有一些其他的相近發音，用注音符號來分辨其實是很容易的。

Since I'm not fluent in speaking English, so I explain it in Chinese first.

The translation below may be incorrect ...

Sounds like retroflex problems in pronounciation. I will use the Chinese phonetic symbols taught in school from my childhood to explain this, to provide a different point of view to help you understand this problem. The character "誰" is spelled "ㄕㄨㄟˊ" in Chinese phonetic symbols. But for regional reasons, some people (like me who grown up in Taiwan) pronounce it close to "ㄙㄟˊ" or "ㄙㄨㄟˊ", which is due to our speech. This confusing problem is mainly caused by "ㄕ" and "ㄙ", the former is pronounced with retroflexion and the other is not. There are similar phonetic symbols like "ㄓ" and "ㄗ", "ㄔ" and "ㄘ"...etc.

如果想了解注音符號和中文發音，或其他和中文相關的問題，歡迎聯絡我

我會盡量用不流利的英文解釋，也請不吝幫我訂正

If you wanna know about Chinese phonetic symbols and pronounciation, or other relative problems, welcome to contact me.

I will try my best to explain it in unfluent English...and I don't know how to translate "不吝"... may be like "please don't hesitate to make comments at my English":roll:

[skylee]

My problem is that I only know about pinyin, not the bopomofo symbols ...

BTW, what do you think about this? -> http://www.chinese-forums.com/index.php?/topic/12-horse-horse-tiger-tiger-slang-and-idioms338

[lokki]

adrianlondon: Just cos you hear something doesn't mean it should be imitated

That is simply not so. You definitely are supposed to imitate it, and that was exactly the point.

The technique used in the course is based on imitating everything you hear on the recordings, with suitable lengths of silence provided for you to speak after each phrase.

[nipponman]

That is simply not so. You definitely are supposed to imitate it, and that was exactly the point.

The technique used in the course is based on imitating everything you hear on the recordings, with suitable lengths of silence provided for you to speak after each phrase.

Hmm, I think in general its good to imitate, but when it comes to things that deviate from the standard way of speaking chinese (abberent pronunciations etc) its best that you leave those alone, you can closely approximate fluent, native chinese without trying to imitate everything everybody says, especially in the beginning.

[RinGo]

in short. we all say shei2

shui2 sounds too formal^_^

[lokki]

Hmm, I think in general its good to imitate, but when it comes to things that deviate from the standard way of speaking chinese (abberent pronunciations etc) its best that you leave those alone, ... , especially in the beginning.

You hear phrase x pronounced on the recording, followed by a space of silence where you are expected to imitate what you just heard. How do you suppose a student, especially a beginning one, can tell which x'es are the aberrant ones that he should leave alone.

[nipponman]

You hear phrase x pronounced on the recording, followed by a space of silence where you are expected to imitate what you just heard. How do you suppose a student, especially a beginning one, can tell which x'es are the aberrant ones that he should leave alone.

I understand your point/frustrations, but the reason this is the wisest thing to do is because, you don't know when to make the appropriate changes! xiu4 can be sheeoou sheeoo or something close, which one is it? its both! so if its both, and you don't know which xiu4 it is, then it is wisest for you to find out the standard way to say this and realize that there may be other ways to say it that you don't have to imitate. For example, if I chinese person came to my neighborhood and became my friend, he would hear all sorts of nonstandard pronunciations, thats just how it is with dialects and regionall variations. He may have questions b/c it didn't sound like what he already knows, but if he tries to imitate it, he will seem weird b/c it isn't normal or natural for him to talk that way. So it is with chinese, the fact that your ARE a beginning student proves my point further. You should learn how to make yourself understood first, then work on approximating native speech. Langugage learning is funny like that, its a marathon, not a sprint my friend...

[Quest]

Chances are, if you speak everything else fluently, people won't even notice whether you pronounced "shei" or "shui". Just learn one accent that you feel comfortable with and that is close enough to the standard. If you travel often in China, there isn't such thing as "the accent" to learn. The standard accent you hear everywhere on TV isn't going to be heard in most places in China.

[atitarev]

I stick to shui2 or shei2 pronunciation, I notice when some Westerners pronounce shuei, the Ei becomes too exaggerated and not natural to my ear. Strangely enough, when people say shui should be spelled shuei, I still hear just shui when they say it The reason being, IMHO, that U is accented and ei is very-very light (if at all).

--

A bit off-topic but related to "ui" diphthong in Chinese.

There's one very common Chinese syllable "hui" (in whatever tone) with lots of meaning (会, 回, 汇, etc.), which sounds like a bad Russian swearword "хуй" - meaning "dick" , it's not so bad when it sounds more like "huei", which has no meaning in Russian. I am used to the syllable but it's a cause for a lot of jokes for some Russian (Polish, Serbian, etc.) learners of Chinese. Well, there's always something in one language, which sounds funny in another

For the same reason the province Anhui is transcribed as Anhoi in Russian and if a syllable Hui appears in a person's name, it's often transcribed as Huei.

--

EDIT:

Seriously, I haven't found any scientific reference about how to pronounce the diphtong UI.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Standard_Mandarin#Phonology