你那本中文書多少錢

[modus.irrealis]

Hi,

I'm very happy I found this forum, because I've just recently begun seriously learning Chinese, but I'm trying to do this on my own and so far I'm just getting confused more than anything else. I'm working my way through "Beginning Chinese Reader" by John DeFrancis, which doesn't have too many grammatical explanations and I guess is meant to be used with a companion book, which I don't have, and I'm using other books to look up grammatical points, but I couldn't find an answer to some of my questions (probably because those books have no index for some reason). Anyway, I'll stop complaining and get to my first question.

One of the exercises in the book is one where sentences are built-up constituent by constituent so you can see how sentences are composed, and the one I'm having trouble with is:

a. 中文書

b. 那本中文書

c. 那本中文書多少錢?

d. 你那本中文書多少錢?

Now I understand a. (which I think is "Chinese book") and b. ("That Chinese book"), but I'm completely lost with c.. At first I thought it might mean "That Chinese book is how much money?" but I don't know if the "is" is optional in Chinese, and then I have no idea how the the 你 in the final sentence fits in. I'm really confused about what this construction is and I'd really appreciate any help.

Thanks,

Thymios

[shibasakikou]

a.Chinese book.

b.That Chinese book.

c.How much is that Chinese book?

d.How much is your Chinese book?

in "d", your:"你的" ,your Chinese book:"你的那本中文書" , "那本"could be omitted,cause "your" already indicate which book I was saying.

so,"How much is your Chinese book?"could be translated into:"你的中文書多少錢?"

[shibasakikou]

a.Chinese book.

b.That Chinese book.

c.How much is that Chinese book?

d.How much is your Chinese book?

in "d", your:"你的" ,your Chinese book:"你的那本中文書" , "那本"could be omitted,cause "your" already indicate which book I was saying.

so,"How much is your Chinese book?"could be translated into:"你的中文書多少錢?"or"你那本中文書多少錢?"or"你的那本中文書多少錢?"

[gougou]

"那本"could be omitted,cause "your" already indicate which book I was saying.

That is only true if the person only has one book.

[rongrong]

To answer your first question,the "is" in that sentence is optional in Chinese,that is to say you can also say it 那本中文书 "是" 多少钱? .Then in the last sentence,the charactor "你" is serving as an adjective to modify the noun "书", so in Chinese it should be placed before the noun it modifies.

[modus.irrealis]

Thanks for all the replies -- they really cleared things up. I see my problem now with d. was that I wanted to take 你 as the subject of the sentence, and that leads to my follow-up question: how come you can say just 你 instead of 你的? The only thing I could find on this was that you do this when the relationship between the possessor and the noun is "close" but this doesn't seem to be the case here. Does the absence of 的 suggest some kind of closeness, or is that rule not entirely accurate? Or, judging from shibasakikou's post, does it have something to do with the fact that a 那 is involved? (Sorry for the rambling post, but part of the problem for me is I don't really know which questions to ask.)

[rongrong]

I think it is so complex a situation to expound concerning whether to use "的".I found no rule for this that is generally applicable to all cases.But I can tell you that in the case of option "d",there just wasn't any perceptible difference between with and without "的".(sh)

[modus.irrealis]

Thanks rongrong. I've read some of the old posts and I'm afraid that every time I ask for general rules, the response is going to be, there ain't any.

[HashiriKata]

modus.irrealis,

From your posts, I understand that you're teaching yourself. My best advice for you is to do yourself a favour and buy the best books you think you'd need and don't rely on the books you just happen to have in your possession. The "Beginning Chinese Reader" by John DeFrancis is definitely not for a self-learner as the 1st book he should be using.

Good luck!

[modus.irrealis]

HashiriKata,

I know it will be tough, but I'm not using it alone - I also have a reference grammar type book that I'm reading and consulting. This beginner's reader + reference grammar method is something I've used successfully in learning other languages (although those were languages that were structurally similar to the two languages I knew growing up, and that can't be said about Chinese), and I feel more comfortable with it and it forces me to be more active, which might explain why it works for me. There are things I like about DeFrancis's book, (reasons are explained much better in WangYuHong's post than I could HAVE), but it does have its issue, so if the going gets too tough and I start annoying people here with over-basic questions, I won't be adverse to trying something less ambitious . And thanks for taking the time to give me some advice.

[imron]

I don't think it's just a matter of being tough vs being easy, it's a matter of being out of date. Some of the language expressions/colloquialisms/usage will have changed or no longer be relevant. Things like the 那 vs. 哪 are but one example (I have another older book that doesn't make this distinction either). Imagine learning English from a textbook published in the 50s/60s. Yes you could do it, but some of the language you learned would seem rather more stilted and would no longer be in common use.

[YETIboy1230]

i think the exercise from the book is meant to make you get a better understanding what chinese logic is to compose a sentence.

well,as a chinese, i don't think it is a good way,it really complicates the procedure,even making me comfused,coz the order of the composition doesn't make any sense to get such a sentence(at least to me:roll: ).

firstly,if i wanna speak my mind like"你那本書多少錢”,i would be more likely to get a "sentence constructor"(i don't know how to call it in engligh,but please be patient to make it out gradually:mrgreen: )for the primary constituent,that is".....多少錢?"(unlike the english,which places "How much" at the beginning).though "多少錢“ is at the end of the sentence,it do sit at first seat in omy mind.

what next is no more than add subject and modifiers like that in english.with the sentence constructor".....多少錢”,you can end up in front of a chinese vendor comfortably asking for merchandise you want like "這個....多少錢"，“那個....多少錢”，even more natively,"這個呢" with the merchandise in your hands or when you point to it with you finger

hope my considrable long(not tedious,eh?) explanation doesn't complicate it again.

good luck ..always be patient with learning chinese as i did when was young..

PS:this is my first post and my first day here...

[modus.irrealis]

imron,

Would you say that written Chinese (whether it's in newspapers, novels, academic works, etc.) has changed enough to make the written Chinese of fifty years ago sound stilted? I'm trying to compare it to English where of course the spoken language has a different feel to it (don't quite know how to say that), but the written language seems much more stable. My understanding was that written Chinese is not merely a written version of how certain speakers speak but has its differences as well. Is that right?

YETIboy1230,

Thanks. Your explanation wasn't confusing at all. I like these build-up exercises. Basically it's easier for me if the book analyzes the sentence for me -- that way I don't have to do it on my own.