Steve Kaufmann - How good is he?

[wannabeafreak]

As I have no mandarin skills, I'm wondering if someone can comment on Steve Kaufmann's Mandarin speaking ability:

1) Accent

2) Fluency

3) Level

http://www.thelinguist.com/media/av/podcast/2006/11/tec.mp3

http://www.thelinguist.com/media/av/podcast/2006/10/chiphi.mp3

Does he sound like an obvious 鬼佬? I really don't know as I have no exposure to this language.

To my ears he sounds 100% Chinese, no difference to a native.

[anonymoose]

To me, as a non-native speaker of chinese, I think his mandarin is not bad, but he doesn't sound like a native. I'll leave others to comment on his accent and level, but I'd say his fluency is not very good. He takes long pauses while he's trying to think of what to say next.

[bomaci]

Having spoken to Mr Kaufmann myself I would say that his accent is good but he makes some tone mistakes. I have also let my native speaking wife listen to him and she says that while his accent is very obviously foreign she has no trouble understanding him.

I think his level is quite high, especially his listening comprehension.

[Yuchi]

He sounds a bit off, I don't know what it is, he overemphasizes the h in his "shi" 是, that's the one thing that's a bit obvious, but he pumps out the words like a native speaker.

[WoAiJolinTsai]

It sounds like he has an Eastern Europen accent or something. Definitely not native, but definitely still very good.

[wannabeafreak]

I'd say his fluency is not very good. He takes long pauses while he's trying to think of what to say next.

I don't think that's fair.

I recorded myself speaking English and I took long pauses while trying to think of what to say next too.

I would be quite cut if someone told me my English fluency was not very good.

[Jive Turkey]

I think he is an excellent user of Chinese, but there are little things-things that to my ear aren't really even annoying-that give him away as a non-native. He has lots of native-like traits in his speech, but they don't all fit together in a native-like balance. He also misses a few tones. If you were to delete the English words he throws in and his missed tones, he would still sound non-native to the native or near-native ear because even though there would be no "errors" in his speech, he would still not sound consistently like any one "native" accent; like a lot of high-proficiency learners, he seems to have some accent mixing going on there. I think most CSL students would be quite happy to speak as well as he does, though.

[Strawberries513]

yes I dont agree with annonymoose (sp?) either. I am a native English speaker and I pause all the time in English.

But I do think his mandarin is good, but not native sounding.

[gato]

The person Kaufman is interviewing sounds native, with a Taiwan accent (since he lived in Taiwan).

http://thelinguist.blogs.com/how_to_learn_english_and/2006/11/the_linguist_me_3.html

The Linguist meets his match Chinese

[SteveK]

I noticed this thread as a referrer to my blog so I thought I would comment here.

In my view a useful and realistic goal of language learning is fluency, not perfection. One of the most important principles that will get you to fluency is the willingness to deal with uncertainty and mistakes in the new language; conversations you do not understand, thoughts you cannot express, words you mispronounce, wrong tones, wrong gender, whatever. Traditional language teaching, with its emphasis on correct production of the language, has done great harm to language learning. Learn to like the language, and learn to like yourself speaking the language. Emphasize input in your learning activities, and enjoy output activities as a game, and not a performance to be judged.

It is unrealistic for most people to aspire to sound like a native speaker. It is, however, possible to continue to improve. I learned Mandarin in 1968 in Hong Kong. I did not speak it much for 30 years thereafter. I occasionally listened and read. Starting five years ago I have had occasion to visit China three times. I stepped up my listening to 相声CDs by 侯宝林, 三国演义 told by 袁阔成 etc. in preparation for my trips. I listen again if I am invited to join a political panel discussion on local (Vancouver) Mandarin televistion. My Chinese today is better than when I studied it 35 years ago, although I have lost the skill of writing the characters by hand.

Recently most of my listening and reading activity is directed towards Russian and Korean. I find I am able to learn langauges faster today at 61 than when I was young. The reason is that I ignore all explanations of the details of the language, all the drills, quizzes, irrelevant examples and other teacher centred "activities". I just focus on content, listening and reading over and over again. I then review and repeat the new words and phrases. I am able to achieve an ability to speak comfortably much more quickly than was the case when I tried to remember rules and words endings.

Steve Kaufmann

www.thelinguist.blogs.com

[wrbt]

. The reason is that I ignore all explanations of the details of the language, all the drills, quizzes, irrelevant examples and other teacher centred "activities". I just focus on content, listening and reading over and over again

Hear hear!

I've been leaning more and more into this school of thought the last year or so. Ask me not what the rule is for using "le" there, it just sounds right damn it.

[calibre2001]

Steve speaks good Chinese. Definitely not native sounding, but it makes me wonder why people aspire to be so? Fluency does not equal being native sounding. As someone here once pointed out, natives just talk.

[SteveK]

For a bilingual discussion of language learning (Chinese and English) please go to

http://feeds.feedburner.com/TheLinguistOnLanguage-Chinese

and scroll down to the video podcast of the discussion with William in Taiwan. Please have the patience to wait through the brief intro.

How different is this approach to what you are all doing?

[Koneko]

Does he sound like an obvious 鬼佬?

Definitely!

His lilt is so foreign to me, he tends to prolong his last words in his sentences too.

K.

[HashiriKata]

On the whole, I like Steve's attitude towards foreign language learning and the manner he speaks Chinese. I agree that he doesn't sound like a native, but that is not very important. If you enjoy learning the language and enjoy using it, you'll sure get much more out of it than just trying to sound like a native. Steve, apart from the fact that I'm just a recent starter in Chinese, I'm also different from you in this regard: I enjoy grammar and I often think about grammar. In stead of hindering me, thinking about grammar and about the language promotes my interest in the language I'm learning. So I suppose there are different styles of learning, as long as we don't make the learning (of vocabulary, grammar, pronunciation, etc.) a chore to complete. Thank you for sharing your experience!

[flameproof]

I'd say his fluency is not very good. He takes long pauses while he's trying to think of what to say next.

Seems it's very different from many others, which talk first, and then may think later. And BTW, a famous HK person was also doing long pauses and then speaking very slowly in English. That was Chris Patten.

So, Steve Kaufmann has an "accent"? Well, most Chinese have an accent one way or another. In other threats people complain about bad mandarin in Beijing. The correct answer is: "who cares?". If YOU care, then you have a target to work on. I personally just care about being understood. At least for now.

Actually I don't really care how good his Mandarin is at all. Or even if he can really speak any at all. It's irrelevant. Because, I can listen to his approach and can apply it for ANY language. It's great motivational material!

Only one little complain: his books are hard to find. Not a single book shop in HK had it, and even the HUGE public library had no copy.

[roddy]

Come on folks, the guy's posting in the discussion - you could at least stop talking about him in the third person

[liuzhou]

most Chinese have an accent one way or another.

Everyone in the world who can speak has an accent.

[Aeriagloris]

as a non-native chinese speaker,this guy's pronunciation is excellent ,almost "以假乱真 "

"变为两种或者三种语言的人"

it should be 三3, and some tone mistakes in the fsuccedent speech

[Koneko]

Well, it's not really an "accent" thing here.

Kaufman just got some noticeable lilt, I think.

I don't know how to describe his "lilt". Hmm... Maybe it's a bit like the American English & Irish English accents. They both sound quite similar but they are not exactly the same. You can't possibly miss the Irish lilt. At least, I can tell them apart.

On the other hand, I am still struggling to identify the differences between American/ Canadian & Australian/ New Zealander accents. They just sound the same to me! Ha ha... I suppose, you have to be an American to know which is which. Likewise, for an Aussie to tell that's a Kiwi accent!

Don't you guys find this accent is really a funny thing?

And posh people tend to have neutral accent!

(So you can't tell where they're from??)

K.