Steve Kaufmann - How good is he?

[HashiriKata]

Steve, I may have missed it but I think in the interview, you mentioned plenty of listening and reading as the key to fluency, but you didn't mention the self-practising part by the learner. What I mean by "self-practising" is the learner practises and repeats what he's learned to himself, even before real interaction. I think this is vital to fluency, because we may "know" how to say something but we may stumble and not be able to bring it out properly without adequate practice. I think you do a lot of this kind of practice, am I correct?

[Koneko]

Pardon my ignorance but who is this Steve Kaufmann guy?!

Please could someone appease my insatiable curiosty...

K.

[HashiriKata]

Pardon my ignorance but who is this Steve Kaufmann guy?!

There are some posts by the man himself in this thread. In one, you can find the link to one of his video podcasts in which you'll hear a brief self-introduction. Of course, you can find out more about Steve Kaufmann from his website. Insatiated?

[flameproof]

Pardon my ignorance but who is this Steve Kaufmann guy?!

Fair question!

Partly in Japanese:

Partly in Mandarin:

Don't listen to his language skills or accent, listen to what he is actually saying.

[Koneko]

Ha ha.. I didn't know he was also in in here...

Oh yes, Hashirikata - I am quite contended.

Very full, in fact, and a bit bulimic as well.

[flameproof]

But since Steve is listening, I would like to find out if he has any Chinese specific advise for the learners.

IMHO Mandarin is a bit of a special language since the script is harder to learn then, to give an example, the 5 additional letters in German, or the 24 or so letters in Korean, which can learn in a few Minutes or Hours. Again IMHO, being able to read has a big impact on the learning speed.

I guess the approach to spoken language would be the same as to any other language. But what's the best approach towards the written language?

[DrZero]

My wife is Chinese, and I had her listen to Steve last night. At first she couldn't tell he was non-Chinese. She had trouble telling which of the speakers was non-native. Eventually a few tone lapses gave him away. But she thought his Chinese was amazing.

Gives me a goal to work for!

[HashiriKata]

She had trouble telling which of the speakers was non-native.

Are you sure your wife is Chinese?

[DrZero]

Trust me on this one ...

[wrbt]

She is, trust me.

[SteveK]

I have been away for a few days without Internet contact. I am going into a 90km cross county ski race in Sweden (the Vasaloppet) in March and since I am not a big cross country skier (and 61) I decided to spend 3 days at Silver Star near Vernon BC amd train. Needless to say I was listening to Korean or Russian while skiing every day. Silver Star is a spectacular family ski resort. Just great!

Re the question on special advice on Mandarin.

1) Focus on patterns and phrases and avoid and ignore all explanations of grammar.

2) Listen and read, lots.

3) Study 10 new characters per day at first, and then get up to 30 per day, recognizing that you will forget most of them and hae to relearn them. Make sure they come from your listening and reading.

4) Use the squared exercise paper that Chinese school children use (or used to use). Write one character 10 times down the first column on the left and then write the translation or pronunciation in pinyin three columns to the right. Then start another character and do the same. Soon you will run into the first character and you will write it again 5 times and put it 3 columns to the right etc.

5) Find content you like, where you like the rhythm and listen over and over.

Re the need to practice saying things by yourself. I did not do much of that, but I did some. Of course you should take every opportunity to repeat the sounds of the words and phrases. You should also speak when you have the chance, without worrying about accuracy or performance. But mostly focus on input. It is easy, always availble and cheap.

Do not worry if your accent is better or worse than someone else's. Learn to find things that you like in the language, the culture and the people. You do not have to like the whole package, just some things. And do not let the things that upset you dominate your attitude.

Steve

www.thelinguist.blog.com

[L-F-J]

very good advice here. but i think most of the ideas are things you should do once you've gotten a base in the language. starting it off that way seems rather impossible, imho. but what do i know? i only speak english and crappy mandarin.

[L-F-J]

adding to the last few comments here, my wife is also chinese. grew up speaking cantonese and hakka in her village and learned mandarin all through school. then she was trained as an english teacher for years. now her english vocabulary is even larger than mine! dont know how...

but anyway, i was playing the mp3 of steves advice yesterday while she was in the kitchen. she said she thought it was great advice and then i told her he was from canada and not chinese. she was surprised. she thought he was a chinese guy. but after listening some more she noticed a tone mistake or two and one phrase that was not quite common chinese. but for a good 11 minutes of mandarin monologue she thought he was a chinese guy. pretty good i'd say.

[flameproof]

very good advice here. but i think most of the ideas are things you should do once you've gotten a base in the language. starting it off that way seems rather impossible,

I presume you refer to the reading. I think it depends how you start. I read my learning material, then again, and again, and again. I know maybe just 200 or so characters. Not enough to read "normal" material. However, I start to notice more and more known structures and patterns in text.

Just remember that 100 characters cover about 50% of the used language, and 500 characters cover about 90%.

I would like to look for not too advanced listening material. I find Chinesepod not really suitable, as their English content is very high, that gives too much of a safety net.

[wrbt]

Just remember that 100 characters cover about 50% of the used language, and 500 characters cover about 90%.

Yes, but how many words cover 50% or 90% of the used language? That's what the bottom line is for understanding what you read right? A beginner with only 100 characters under their belt will probably recognize "大方" for the characters they are but not have a clue that it means "generous." They'd probably be puzzled about someone being big directioned.

[SteveK]

I speak 10 languages and have attacked Korean and Russian these last two years. I am 61.

When you begin you do not need a teacher, in fact you cannot use a teacher. You just need to listen and read and build up vocabulary. You and a teacher have nothing to say to each other.

After 6 months you may seek out native speakers to speak with. This may, but need not, include a teacher. You need not feel pressure to speak. Just spend your time growing your skills through input until the opportunity to speak in a meaningful context arises. Then you will do fine as long as you do not expect perfection, at any time. Use the language, continue your input and watch your level grow.

Listening content should be exclusively in the target language since you need to listen over and over. It should be natural, friendly. There should always be a transcript, if possible in e-text so you can use online dictionaries.Beyond this advice I would be getting into explaining how The Linguist system works which may be an abuse of this forum.

Steve

www.thelinguist.blogs.com

[L-F-J]

I presume you refer to the reading.

well, ignoring grammar explanations as well. if in the beginning you learn some words and phrases naturally that involves grammar. i think it would be rather difficult to build up a vocabulary beyond that and know how to use it if you didnt pay attention to grammar at least in the beginning.

as far as chinese goes, grammar is usually pretty simple. once you have a basic understanding of sentence structure then from there you can forget about all explanations and rules. you'll notice them as they come. but if you dont learn the basic grammar of the language when you start it will pose some problems in building an effective vocabulary. at least thats the way it would seem. i really havent met anyone who has ignored all explanations of grammar from the very start.

even if you understand the words, if they are in such an order that when you try to straighten it out in your head and get an understanding and you really have no clue or think it means something other than it does because of your lack of grammar comprehension, then you're in trouble. you could use the english translation to figure it out. but thats giving you a crutch. you want to be able to do all your study in the target language. even straightening out the understanding. try to become the native speaker by thinking in that language. you cant do that without at least a basic understanding of grammar from the start.

if you have your tools ready but dont look at the instructions you might mess up your project. but if you've gone through one basic instruction book at the very beginning, then you can use your tools to complete pretty much any other projects. but without that initial breakdown you simply wouldnt know.

[SteveK]

We learn by relating new things to things we already know. That is why in the first stages of learning a new language it is useful to have the text in a language you already know, usually your own.That is also why a dictionary or glossary (hopefully online) into a language you already know is so effective.These are not crutches but extremely useful references to what you already know.

Grammar explanations for a new language do not relate to any experience we already have. It is only after considerable exposure to a language that the grammar explanations start to make sense. Therefore they are best avoided or at most they should be quickly perused.

That is my experience in learning many languages. Other people may have different approaches and experience.

[flameproof]

as far as chinese goes, grammar is usually pretty simple. once you have a basic understanding of sentence structure then from there you can forget about all explanations and rules. you'll notice them as they come. but if you dont learn the basic grammar of the language when you start it will pose some problems in building an effective vocabulary.

Sorry, I am on StevenK's side and also think grammar is no use. Here is why:

I build up vocab via text and stories, that includes always sentence structure. That means, I do learn words, plus, I pick up a structure that I can just copy and put into different situations.

Think about this: In my native language, I would say I speak generally "OK", without too many errors. However, I only have a rudimentary idea about grammar, like 95% of my countrymen.

SteveK said:

Listening content should be exclusively in the target language...

That would exclude ChinesePod.com . I start to tend to agree here. After 100+ lessons I seem not to get anywhere. I picked up a few catchy phrases. But that's about it.

So, question to all: any good podcasts out there with transcripts? I think I would like http://www.antiwave.net - but they seem to have no transcripts, and therefore would be far to advanced.

[L-F-J]

We learn by relating new things to things we already know. That is why in the first stages of learning a new language it is useful to have the text in a language you already know, usually your own.

certainly, in the beginning. but i think once you've gotten an understanding and have some control over the language, you should try to understand the ideas in the target language by using the target language. that way you learn critical thinking in the new language. rather than always having to rely on your native tongue for that. to really become fluent is to be able to think completely in that language, imo.

I am on StevenK's side and also think grammar is no use.

is it steve's opinion that grammar is of no use at all? even the very beginning stage? its not quite clear. i believe i heard him talking about it always being there. never ignored. but just not focused upon as the main point in learning. certainly, it should be left in the background at some point though. but it is always there and should be there more in the beginning before it is dropped off to the background in later learning- imo.