Forced arranged marriage of my friend - advice needed

[Gregg]

My friend is 21 and from a small village about 8 hours travel from Xi'an. She left home 4 years ago, and is studying in Xi'an. On a recent trip to see her parents, they made her meet a man, took her money so she could not return to Xi'an, and then told her she must go and live with the man's family and then marry the man

This is not the usual arranged marriage where she would be introduced to several men, by the parents who are poor, but a forced arranged marriage that she does not want.

After her parents kept her at their home for 2 weeks, she eventually persuaded them that she must leave to get things in Xi'an, by lying to them telling that she would return for the marriage after one month. Her mother gave her back her money, and she returned to Xi'an.

She is very upset and says she will not see her parents, who she loves, again. She has often sent money to her family, who are poor. The worry is that they will come and find her in Xi'an. My friend thinks she is safe, since they don't know her address. But I am not so sure. She says that there have been some instances in the small village of

forced arranged marriages.

I would like advice on what she can do. My friend says that the authorities take

no notice of such things, thinking of them as family matters, that there is no protection against this.

[imitation]

Ok i'm going to first say that there are Chinese government agencies which are designed to protect women from forced arranged marriages and I've heard they are actually more and more succesful at protecting women, unfortunately I don't know the names or how to contact them but be assured they exist.

Second and perhaps not what you want to here, chinese culture is not western culture it is very easy for us to judge from a moral value which is based on a christian culture we've grown up in, but chinese culture and values are not the same. Your friend has some difficult things to think about and you should be supporting her to make decisions based on what she thinks is right and what her culture thinks is right not what western culture has percieved onto chinese as correct.

There are many older chinese who are the property of arranged marriage who have actually gone on to lead long full lives that have been happy. As opposed to westerners who get to choose there own spouses but still have very high divorce rates.

I know this is very taboo idea but try to imagine that your values are what they really are only a product of your system, it is very hard to make right or wrong, it is not science or maths.

[Lu]

that she does not want.

I think this is the important part.

Sure some people have been happy even in arranged marriages, but 1) it is not normal anymore, even in China, and 2) if at least one of the partners does not want to, it sounds like a bad idea to me, and last but not least, 3) some people have also been very, very unhappy in arranged marriages.

I'm hardly in a position to advise her... I can advise Gregg to be a real friend to this woman, listen to her, help her whenever you can. For the woman herself... she'd best make sure she keeps control over her life and her money (ie not let anyone take her money, or her passport, or cancel her university, or her apartment, etc); not go back to her parents until this is sorted out; if necessary, move to another address and make sure her parents don't know it; and most importantly, talk to her parents, try to make them understand that this is not a good idea and that she does not want it. And she can try to find one of those organisations that help in such cases. Unfortunately I don't know any names either.

[roddy]

To be honest, I'm not sure you need to do anything. The woman herself has decided she is safe, and I don't see any reason to second guess her. By all means tell her what assistance you can offer if she needs it, but beyond that? Maybe do some research on local woman's organizations, but that would be difficult unless you are on the ground and speak Chinese. I'd start with looking for a local branch of the 妇联。

[Gregg]

I really appreciate the thoughtful replies.

For imations reply, yes I agree this is a cultural issue, but only to a degree. I did find that arranged marriages range the full spectrum from suggestions from mild suggestions by the parents, to a series of meetings with potential spouses by the parents, to the most extreme form: forced arranged marriages (with no input from or choice by the son or daughter).

In my reading the supporters of arranged marriage, mentioned the same arguments you did - lower divorce rate - parents know better etc. They almost universally did not condone forced arranged marriages, where force was used, and the daughter or son had no input.

I did try to locate some woman's organizations - but this is very difficult - as I don't know the language. Any additional suggestions would be great and welcomed. I know that it is important that she is able to at least eventually communicate with her family - this is extremely painful for her - but as the other messages indicated - it will take time.

[pazu]

You mention that the girl's family is poor, perhaps her parents got some money from the man's family, i.e. Selling your friend as a bride. This is not too uncommon in some village even now. Her parents may honestly think that the man is a good bloke and it would be okay to take this guy as their son-in-law.

Okay, this is just a guess, but if money is involved in this forced marriage, things may get a bit complicated. If the girl doesn't return to the village, her parents may have to return the money to the man's family. What if they have some realistic financial problem? Can the girl help her parents to solve them?

If I were the girl I would not go back to the village for a while, a year or two, but it is still possible to keep contact with her family on phone, ask them what they need and send some $$ back.

[imron]

The website for the Xi'an Women's Union is www.xianwomen.com, and you can find their contact phone numbers here: http://www.xianwomen.com/lxwm.htm. Even though you might not be able to read it, your friend certainly will be able to, so that is a good place for her to start.

[Yang Rui]

Another organisation that might be able to help with advice: www.nongjianv.org

They're Beijing-based but may have local contacts that could offer advice.

[imron]

As an aside, it's also worth mentioning that forced arranged marriages are actually forbidden by Chinese law, as is selling marriage and any other activity that interferes with an individual's freedom to marry. Although the law and reality are often completely different things in China (and especially so in rural China), your friend can perhaps take some small comfort that the law is on her side and it's something else she can use when talking to her parents about this issue.

Your friend can find a copy of the law on this webpage: http://www.legalinfo.gov.cn/zt/2004-08/10/content_126824.htm. The relevant part is Section 1, Article 3.

第三条 禁止包办、买卖婚姻和其他干涉婚姻自由的行为。禁止借婚姻索取财物。

and also Article 5

第五条 结婚必须男女双方完全自愿，不许任何一方对他方加以强迫或任何第三者加以干涉。

[Gregg]

Hi Everyone:

Thanks so much for the helpful replies, the web links and the articles of chinese law

Here are some other web links I found

The Shaanxi Research Association for Women and Family based in Xi'an runs some

hotlines and is focused on women's issues esp. for rural women (equality, violence etc):

http://www.westwomen.org/index.asp

The Maple centre in Beijing seems to be well established:

http://www.maple.org.cn/

[djwebb2004]

but it is still possible to keep contact with her family on phone, ask them what they need and send some $$ back.

??? Send $$$ back?? If I were this girl I would forget all about my parents completely!

@ Imitation: forced arranged marriages are *wrong*. Values are not limited by time and place. We don't say, "slavery is wrong in England only". Probably all cultures are recording progress, maybe at different rates etc, but a lot of bad things happened in the past in all countries, and progress means leaving that behind.

[imitation]

Explain why your values are right...values are just a set of standards our particular culture has chosen to enforce and then re-enforce for generations, until they are an assumption of rights and wrongs. In muslim countries their values assume a women should not show her face in public. I think this is a stupid value and makes no sense. But I cannot argue that perhaps my values are wrong and theirs are right. We are all very much an image of our upbringing.

If you have some arguement to convince me otherwise i'm quite sure of myself on this and would like to see some kind of logical, mathematical or scientific rules which can demonstrate why some values are right or wrong. Because these are the things I believe in as these have their basis in real undeniable truth.

Now that is not to say that I don't have my own particular values and morals, but I know that these are only an influence of a feminist mother and a communist father.

[imitation]

Further indicating that this girl should just forget her parents is so ignorant of CHINESE values, I feel you just miss the point completely on why this girl WILL have problems. She is not an American teenager who saw on Judge Judy that some girl got emancipated from her parents and now has her own house and car. This is real life of Chinese people who value culture and family in a way Americans perhaps cannot understand.

[Lu]

I don't think wanting to have contact with one's parents is a Chinese thing, I think this is pretty much universal, just like motherly love.

There might be a cultural issue to arranged marriages, but in China, it is not an accepted custom (anymore). It still happens in various degrees, but nowadays in China it's illegal, and not normal in any way, that parents force their child to marry someone the child does not want to marry. So I think in this case, cultural issues are not a factor.

I can go into a discussion here why it is, no matter in what culture, WRONG to consider women second-rate citizens, but that would maybe be a bit too far off topic.

[Mugi]

Lu, what are you basing your comments on? Arranged marriages might be uncommon in metropolitan China, but I suspect that they are still very common in rural China. I confess that I have no statistics at hand, but one certainly hears about arranged marriages in rural China on a regular basis. You may be right in your claim - I'm just interested in finding out how you arrived at it.

As an aside, I have to agree in principle with imitation - values are 100% subjective. There is no balck and white or inherent good/bad, right/wrong when it comes any form of values, be they shared by a given culture in general or held by an individual. Values can only be defined as good or bad, right or wrong, within a given context.

[djwebb2004]

Now that is not to say that I don't have my own particular values and morals, but I know that these are only an influence of a feminist mother and a communist father.

Both feminism and communism have value-systems. Few feminists would agree that in a certain country women not being allowed to drive is "just part of their culture"; most feminists would believe it was backward and unprogressive. Similarly. communists don't say class privilege etc is all "part of a country's culture and should be equally celebrated", but regard it is as unprogressive and to be done away with.

Your question amounts to: as different people have different views and will differ on the basis on which they arrived at their views, we should agree that everyone is equally like to be right, right? But of course people who believe in progress do not believe that feudal/backward/unprogressive elements in a country's culture are just as good as progressive elements. If you need a general principle, you could look at Abe Lincoln's comment on slavery, "what is this good thing that no one wants for himself?" To claim that backward elements of your culture are justified, as all cultures are a priori equal, should not be used to justify oppressing others. I think you could ask your femininist mother and communist father for more help on this question.

[imitation]

Isn't progressive thought just a driven by values of a certain group of people who've raised to a position of power where they can implement there own "progressive values". Isn't it just as likely we'll progress forward into some previous state of backwards values like the west is experiencing with it's great loss in civil libertys. Now why couldn't we just be in some kind of cyclical era of certain values holding precedence over others.

I don't think you've swayed me particularly but your arguement makes some sense.

For the record i'm quite liberal, infact i've only begun to question this whole idea of values and beliefs in China in my 2nd year here, as I try to rationalise actions of Chinese to the large portion of foreigners who constantly have something to moan about it seems.

I think a year ago my posts would have echoed most of the sentiments so far posted.

[djwebb2004]

For the record i'm quite liberal, infact i've only begun to question this whole idea of values and beliefs in China in my 2nd year here, as I try to rationalise actions of Chinese to the large portion of foreigners who constantly have something to moan about it seems.

Well, there are various ways to take China - and Chinese people. Ultimately if we have decided to be here for a decent length of time, we have to enjoy it or we'll go mad. [Hmm! I've just been reading Lu Xun's Diary of a Madman, and parts of it could describe China, not in 1918, but today.] Basically, things become better when you get some good Chinese friends, who show you the good side of China. I don't see the necessity of pretending that China does not have social problems and frustrating experiences. But I find that Chinese friends, while admitting there are problems, don't really appreciate an exclusive fixation on China's weaker points. Compared to other developing countries, China has a lot of strong points. The police don't rob you as they might in Latin America, crime levels are low for foreigners and nearly everything you need is available in the shops.

[bianfuxia]

Imitation and Mugi: Cultural relativism will not set you free. At its extreme it is deceptive. As djwebb2004 points out, when it is used to justify practices that no person would wish upon themselves (slavery, domestic violence, etc) then it goes too far.

Values change as cultures do over time, and they change in different ways over different periods of time. You can accept this and work with it without having to take the position that all practices are valid because someone somewhere in some cultural context supports them. That way doesn't lead to cultural improvement, it leads to people being unable to oppose practices like FGM or burning of widows when her husband dies or the stoning of rape victims, the torture of suspects, or indeed the incarceration of people without trial due to their political beliefs. How many times have you heard critics of these practices be told "well that's the way they do it in their culture and because we're not part of that culture we aren't in a position to criticise".

The argument should be about where the line is drawn - some "degrees" of arranged marriage may be different to others and therefore acceptable, as someone pointed out. But I think we would actually find, if we examined it closely, that there are in fact some values that transcend culture and would be subscribed to by all societies or cultures. Opposition to slavery is probably one of them at this point in history. Opposition to torture, even though some people still do it and some people advocate it, is probably another. Trafficking of women and children for sexual exploitation probably makes the cut too (though some feminists would argue otherwise except in the really bad cases).

If there are such transcendent human values (which is basically the crux of the entire human rights movement), then cultural relativism doesn't help. True, many "rights" are very western-focused. But the core rights? The right not to be killed arbitrarily for no reason? That civilians shouldn't be deliberately targeted in war? The idea that children are not to be used as slaves? That no-one should be subjected to torture? I think these are above the "that's so western" argument, which is so often what people really mean when they use the language of cultural relativism. And if there are some, there can be others.

[Lu]

Lu, what are you basing your comments on? Arranged marriages might be uncommon in metropolitan China, but I suspect that they are still very common in rural China. I confess that I have no statistics at hand, but one certainly hears about arranged marriages in rural China on a regular basis. You may be right in your claim - I'm just interested in finding out how you arrived at it.

Mugi, to be honest I have no statistics either, this is mostly my impression, from what I have read and heard about it. My impression is that marriages are still often enough arranged in a low degree (like parents introducing their children to someone they think would be a good partner, or telling their child to stop dating someone the parents don't agree with) but that very few children are really forced to marry someone against their will. But my impression might of course be wrong.