F***ed up visa situation...need advice

[mandarinstudent]

I'm currently in a messed up visa situation and need some advice.

Right now I am with a company in Changchun with a contract that stipulates that I can leave with 30 days notice. This company teaches everything from 5 year old children to adults. I have decided that teaching small children is not for me, so I went around to the colleges in Changchun to see if they need anyone for the next semester starting in March. A university wants to hire me, so I told my company now that I want to leave in March (70 days notice, twice the time required in the contract). I thought I would be nice and give them extra notice to look for my replacement but the headmaster responded by firing me. They said I am to work until January 19th and then I am fired. The school wants me to return my working/residence permit on that day. The school also said that they won't write me a recommendation letter even though I have had nothing but stellar teacher reviews by our manager. I need this letter to get the job at the University.

I am preparing for the worst situation and assuming that he won't change his mind. I am married to a Chinese person, so I know that I am allowed to get a 1 year tourist visa. If I have to turn in the work permit that is stuck in my passport, how can I convert it? Am I going to have to leave the country to get a tourist visa? If the company takes my visa, how can I leave the country anyway? How does this work?

Let's say that I have to convert my visa to a tourist visa. Are there any universities that have the authority to convert it back to a work visa/permit without a letter of recommendation?

Basically I am asking if there are any people that have gone through this. If your company takes your work/residence permit, what do you do?

[roddy]

They can't take your residence permit. You need it to leave the country, and it's stuck to your passport (which for UK passports at least, remains the property of the UK Government. Tell them they're going to need to phone the embassy before they start ripping it to pieces.)

Worst case scenario I can see is that they try and get the PSB to take it away from you, but even then they'd need to give you a tourist visa. Your boss is talking nonsense.

I would

a) Go see the university that wants to employ you. Explain the situation and ask if 1) you can start working earlier, 2) offer to put them in touch with some of your students by way of a reference letter and 3) if they'll support any visa changes that need to be made - ideally I'd want them to produce a stamped letter saying that they want to employ you.

You can probably manage all that if you make constant references to how private education in China is such a mess, and you are desperate to start working for a state institution which understands about quality and so on.

B) Then take your wife, letter, any degree certificates, supporting documentation from previous visa application and so on and go to see the PSB. Explain the situation - emphasize the fact your boss reckons he is going to take away your residence visa, they'll love that - and see what they say.

I'd be very surprised if you need to leave China. I reckon you'll either end up with a new residence permit for the new school, or a long-term tourist visa and a tacit nod from the PSB that they aren't going to worry about you working on it - you've got a wife to support, after all

If your company takes your work/residence permit, what do you do?

Report them to your embassy (its their passport) and the PSB (it's their permit). .

[mandarinstudent]

They can't take your residence permit. You need it to leave the country, and it's stuck to your passport (which for UK passports at least, remains the property of the UK Government. Tell them they're going to need to phone the embassy before they start ripping it to pieces.)

I was wondering how they were going to take the residence permit. It says in my contract that the contract is terminated early that the permit is to be "returned", but how?

a) Go see the university that wants to employ you. Explain the situation and ask if 1) you can start working earlier, 2) offer to put them in touch with some of your students by way of a reference letter and 3) if they'll support any visa changes that need to be made - ideally I'd want them to produce a stamped letter saying that they want to employ you.

The University wants to hire me and would help in changing my visa over to their school, but they said that they need a letter of reference from my last employer in order to get an FEC for me. Is there a way around this? Letting them get in touch with some of my students would serve as a substitution for a letter from my current employer?

[roddy]

Hmmm, never had to supply a reference for an FEC, but I haven't done this for ages, and there could be local differences anyway. See if a reference from any former employer will do?

[zhwj]

The language in the contract might be a holdover from a few years ago when Residence Permits were actually separate documents (green little booklets), so they could conceivably repossess one and either (a) alter the dates, or (B) punch it through to void it.

[imron]

As far as I know (and I'm not 100% certain, but probably about 95%), the new university doesn't need a letter of reference for your FEC, they need a letter of release from your current employer. This is to prove that you are no longer working for your current school, because a Z visa+residence permit can only be associated with one work-unit. The school you are currently working at will need to provide this if they want to terminate your residence permit. As for returning your residence permit, I agree that this language is probably a hangover from the days when it was a separate book. Nowadays the PSB would probably just mark/stamp it as invalid, and you'd be issued a 30-day L visa to give you time to leave the country.

[imron]

Just to add a bit more info on this. I worked at the same school in China for 3 years. At the end of each contracted period, I received a "letter of release" saying that my contract was now finished, even on the occasions when I'd signed on for another year (this was treated as a separate contract).

After having a hunt around, I've found one of the letters, the text of which I've included below. Along with the signature and stamp of the school, this is probably all you'll need.

合同终止书

LETTER OF RELEASE

____________， 男，____________籍，护照号码是：____________。于_____年___月___日至_____年__月___日，受聘于我院从事英语口语教学工作。目前，该外教已完成教学工作，原签署的合同于_____年__月__日终止。

____________ (Passport Number: ___________) was an employed English teacher of ______________________________________ from _____________ to _____________ . We therefore wish to formally confirm the completion of the contract on the date of ________________.

校方签字：

外籍教师签字:

The college

The teacher

[mandarinstudent]

Just to add a bit more info on this. I worked at the same school in China for 3 years. At the end of each contracted period, I received a "letter of release" saying that my contract was now finished, even on the occasions when I'd signed on for another year (this was treated as a separate contract).

After having a hunt around, I've found one of the letters, the text of which I've included below. Along with the signature and stamp of the school, this is probably all you'll need.

My school is saying that it has to be a school to school transaction. He won't give me the letter directly. The University said that it isn't a school/school transaction and that I need to get the letter myself. Who is telling the truth?

As far as I know (and I'm not 100% certain, but probably about 95%), the new university doesn't need a letter of reference for your FEC, they need a letter of release from your current employer.

Just talked with the University. They said that in Changchun you need a letter for the FEC becuase rules are different from city to city.

[imron]

My school is saying that it has to be a school to school transaction. He won't give me the letter directly. The University said that it isn't a school/school transaction and that I need to get the letter myself. Who is telling the truth?

It's my understanding that when you finish employment with a given school/company, they are required to provide you with a letter stating that your contract has ended. This is regardless of whether you are going to a new school or not.

I imagine they'll have a hard time terminating your residence permit without such a letter, because without it, your contract says you are still employed by them. Show them the text of the above letter, and tell them that if they want you to hand your residence permit back on the 19th of January, then you will need the above letter dated 19th of January and signed and stamped by the school.

[mandarinstudent]

My school is saying that they won't give me the letter of release directly, that they will only send it directly to the school. The University says that it wants nothing to do with the school because they don't want the school to think that they are trying to take me away from them. Neither school will contact the other. Now my school is asking for my passport to change my residence permit back into a tourist visa. I don't trust them too much now...Is there any way I can change it back myself?

[imron]

Can I firstly clarify a few things:

1) Are you working on a Z visa?

2) Is your contract a standard-issue SAFEA contract? (it will say "issued and printed by the state administration of foreign experts affairs" on the front if this is the case).

3) What is the expiration date of the contract?

The SAFEA website makes mention that issues regarding terminations of contracts are governed by the: 外国文教专家聘用合同管理暂行办法.

This states among other things that:

第二十四条　有下列情形之一的，合同即告终止：

　　1.合同期满；

　　2.合同已按约定条件得到履行；

　　3.仲裁机构裁决终止合同；

　　4.双方协商同意终止合同。

第二十五条　变更或解除合同的通知或协议，应采用书面形式。

Loosely translated, article 24 states the conditions under which a contract can end, which are:

1. the contract reaching its end date.

2. the conditions of the contract being fulfilled.

3. the contract being canceled by the arbitration organisation, and

4. both parties deciding to end the contract.

Article 25 states that any agreement regarding changes/cancellation of the contract need to be done in writing.

So, if your initial contract doesn't expire on the 19th of January, then the school needs to continue to adhere to the conditions of the contract until the expiration date.

If both parties agree to end the contract early, then it needs to be in writing.

This has nothing to do with going to another school or not, it's simply something the school is required to do if you both wish to end the contract early. It seems to me that your school is making you 穿小鞋 (i.e. making your life difficult as a means of revenge).

Things to bear in mind:

1) Enforcing the contract provisions using legal means will probably be difficult/impossible, unless you've got better guanxi than the school.

2) The school can continue to make things difficult for you, including withholding unpaid salary/benefits etc. (which is not exactly legal, but due to point 1, your recourse against this might be minimal). Bear this in mind when dealing with the school, because the more you anger them, the more likely they will be to try and retaliate.

3) You've got your passport, and the school doesn't. I wouldn't hand it over to them to get anything changed until you've got a letter of release in your hand. They are legally responsible for you while you are employed by them, and that maybe incentive enough for them to sign the letter.

[imron]

and one more thing - Check with the new university if you still need the letter if you were to apply for the new Z - visa from overseas. I'm guessing you won't, and it's only required if you are trying to transfer/extend a current residence permit. If you don't need it, get the new university to prepare the paperwork as necessary for a new Z visa, and then go and have a holiday/visa run in Hong Kong.

[mandarinstudent]

No, I'm not technically on a Z visa. I came to the school on an L visa and they had enough guanxi to change it into a work/residence permit. I am not on a SAFEA contract, just something drew up by the school. That contract says that either party can terminate the contract with 30 days notice. I don't have an FEC either, just the work/residence permit. I'm guessing that the school took care of my visa with guanxi, not so much by the books.

I asked about the letter of recommendation. The University said that a letter just stating when I worked for my current school would suffice and my school said that they would provide one. The sticking point now is the letter of release. My school won't give it to me and the University is too scared to contact my school to ask for it. The University said that in the past they have had problems when they "take" a teacher from a private school. The private school causes trouble for them. The University said that they don't want to do a Hong Kong run. Pretty much seems like I am screwed. This is what I get for being honest and giving 70 days notice when only 30 was required. I should have just sat on the information until the last moment. Anyone know of any schools that aren't scared of Bai Da Wei English school in Changchun?

[imron]

Unfortunately, I don't think 70 days vs 30 days would have made much more difference, except for a month and bit of salary. Your current school most likely would have been just as difficult. If you've ever wondered why Chinese people sometimes delay telling you things until the last possible moment, this is part of the reason why.

As it stands, you've got something the school wants (your passport with residence permit), and they've got something you want (a letter of release). Maybe try and sort out your mutual problems over dinner?

[anonymoose]

I was considering working for Bai Da Wei English School in Changchun about three years ago and was already in contact with them. Your situation makes me kind of glad that I didn't. But anyway, what about the manager/owner? He is from the US, right? Can't you appeal to him directly, or is he the one causing the problem?

[trevelyan]

Assuming the school covered the costs of getting you your visa they aren't necessarily behaving irrationally in making it difficult for you to find employment elsewhere. Why pay for documentation if staff disappear once they have it?

If you've stuck around for a year and have a good working relationship with your employer I'd try to salvage your guanxi if possible, and at least make an effort to find out what their concerns are. If they are taking care of staff documentation under the table they may simply be reluctant to have those documents circulating outside of their network of guanxi.

That being said, if an employer tried treated me like this for no reason other than to restrict my labour mobility, I'd simply give them a printed letter of release at 9:00am some morning and inform them that I wouldn't be stepping into a classroom until they managed to get it stamped. Bridges thus burned, I'd spend my newfound free time looking for a better job.