the usage of 被

[babygodzilla]

so im reading a comic and im there is a sentence that says 全被破坏了。

but what is the difference between

全被破坏了 and

全破坏了？

thanks for the help people!

[Quest]

All simple yet confusing grammar rules: http://www.chinese-forums.com/index.php?/topic/3034-all-simple-yet-confusing-grammar-rules

[Koneko]

全被破坏了 = All being destroyed

全破坏了 = All destroyed

[imitation]

I under stand passive voice but what is the benefit of using it here when both the subject and object are omitted, is there some difference in meaning?

[imitation]

Koneko does 被 work here like 呢 or 正在 ?

[babygodzilla]

im fluent in english but im still not 100% sure what "passive" voice is, even in english

i read that explanation in the other thread, as well as the explanation in the other thread mentioned. im still confused. take this sentence for example,

那个警察被打伤了。 Nei4 ge jing3 cha2 bei4 da3 shang1 le. That policeman was wounded.

if that means "the policeman was wounded" what does 那个警察打伤了 means? "The policeman wounds" ? what? that's not even a sentence...

[gougou]

if that means "the policeman was wounded" what does 那个警察打伤了 means? "The policeman wounds" ? what? that's not even a sentence...

True. You can't just take a word out of a sentence and expect it to still make sense. If you want to have the sentence in active form, consider 小偷打伤那个警察了。 - The thief injured the policeman.

Passive voice, btw, are sentences with this structure: to be (in the appropriate form and tense) + V-ed (+ by)

[Koneko]

That's correct.

Maybe it's easy if you look at it in this way:-

Active

A hit B

A 打了 B

Passive

B was hit (by A)

B 被 (A) 打了

English & Chinese word orders are quite similar, so you may omit the words in brackets (as shown above) in passive form.

Hope it helps!

[babygodzilla]

oooh... the formulas written in the last 2 posts are quite helpful. ill go back to the sentences ive encountered and try to make more sense of em.

thanks!

[imitation]

I think in these two sentences the meaning is the same regardless of 被 appearing or not, 被 does not need to be included in all passive voice chinese sentences, I just remembered this now from class we learnt it.

[imitation]

for example what's the difference between

那个苹果他吃了

那个苹果被他吃了

They both put focus on the apple as opposed to standard.

他吃那个苹果了

[Koneko]

那个苹果被他吃了

This is a passive voice

那个苹果他吃了

This is a post-positioned adjective. The noun being 那个苹果; 他吃了 added after the noun to emphasise its state.

[tanhql]

to me, 被 gives a feeling of negativity.

[babygodzilla]

a post-positioned adjective...? i have never heard of that... LOL! wow this is hard...

The apple was eaten by him.

The apple he ate.

So let me get this straight. Passive voice is where the Object comes before the Subject? That is, the receiver of the action is mentioned before the doer of the action?

I'm reading Doraemon and there's a lot of 被 being used. and I also agree with the post above saying 被 gives a negative feeling. In the comic 被 is used in many not-so-good situations.

and while i'm still here, i might as well ask, what is the difference between 本来，and 原来？

[tanhql]

原来（1）

表示发现真实情况

eg: 原来是你！(so it's you (who done something, etc)!)

我说夜里怎么这么冷，原来是下雪了。

the next meaning of 原来 is very close to 本来

原来（2）

起初；没有经过改变的

eg: 他还住在原来的地方。

本来

原有，原先，理所当然

eg: 本来的样子

他本来身体很瘦弱，现在很结实了。

我本来不知道，来到这里才听说有这回事。

本来就应该这样嘛。

it's a bit difficult to pick out the exact differences.

[self-taught-mba]

a post-positioned adjective...? i have never heard of that... LOL! wow this is hard...

This is a post-positioned adjective. The noun being ÄǸöÆ»¹û; Ëû³ÔÁË added after the noun to emphasise its state.

Didn't know what it was called either but we use it all the time in English.

Examples:

His patience/energy, is all used up.

That building, sure is tall.

Of course most are in speech.

[babygodzilla]

thanks for all the explanations!

[nitbj]

(1)全被破坏了

(2)全破坏了

both mean "things were broken". but, things in (1) were well-intentioned broken by some force, while things in (2) weren't.

That is the benefit of the usage of "被“, which is in line with the other thread http://www.chinese-forums.com/index.php?/topic/5599-%e8%a2%ab "In proper Chinese, 被 is only used for negative things, whereas in English the passive is used to discuss even positive things“.

[Altair]

As I understand it, the truth is that Chinese has no passive voice. Instead, it has many different constructions that express different nuances that can correspond to the English passive voice. Sometimes Chinese has no equivalent.

Among the constructions that may correpond to the English passive are: the 被 bèi construction; the similar constructions with 给 gěi, 叫 jiào, 让 ràng; the notional passive; a preposed object in SOV order; a preposed object in OSV order; the 由 yóu construction; the 是..........的 (shì.......de); using 人 rén as a dummy subject, somewhat as in the meaning of "someone"; and the equivalent active construction. All of these constructions, except the equivalent active constructions, have usage restraints. All have different nuances.

The Chinese construction that seems most like the English passive is the 被 (bèi) construction. You can think of 被 as having an inherent meaning of "undergo" or "suffer," and so it usually implies something negative. According to Hung-Nin Samuel Cheung's A Practical Chinese Grammar, its semantic function is to report something unfavorable, undesirable or unfortunate. It is important to note that the person or thing experiencing the negative event is not necessarily the topic of the sentence or the word that precedes 被 bèi.

Because of the prevalence of the passive voice in many European languages, translaters have struggled with how to translate it consistently into Chinese. They have latched on to 被 bèi as the closest equivalent and so its usage has recently expanded to cover some situations that are not negative. According to A Practical Chinese Grammar, these situations mainly involve verbs followed by a complex complement: (1) to be elected, selected, or considered as, (2) to be relocated or assigned to, (3) to be turned or transformed into, (4) certain specific verbs, such as "to be mesmerized" (吸引住) or "to be touched" (感动). Although in most uses, 被 can be informally replaced by 给, 叫, or 让, it cannot be replaced by these words in these non-negative uses.

Aside, from the four situations described above, the use of 被 generally implies some negative consequence of the action described.

I believe that the six sentences below are grammatical, but say slightly different things.

1. 他吃了那个苹果. (regular SVO order) Sentence 1 says what action "he" completed and is the most neutral in tone. It answers the question "What did he do?" "He" is both the grammatical topic and the grammatical subject.

2. 他把那个苹果吃了. (把 bǎ construction) Sentence 2 says what he did to the apple. There is an emphasis on the final fate of the apple.

3. 他那个苹果吃了. (Preposed object in SOV order) Sentence 3 says what action he completed that involved the apple.

4. 那个苹果他吃了. (Preposed object in OSV order) Sentence 4 says what action was completed with the apple. "The apple" is the grammatical topic and the grammatical object. "He" is the grammatical subject.

5. 那个苹果吃了. (Notional passive) This describes the final state of the apple without any stress on who was responsible or any notion that this was a good or bad thing. "That apple" is the topic and object. The sentence has no grammatical subject. In Chinese, topics are required, but subjects are not. In theory, this sentence could also be interpreted with "that apple" as the subject, meaning: "That apple ate it"; however, this meaning is nonsense and so is rejected.

6. 那个苹果被吃了. (被 bèi construction) This describes an unfortunate event that occurred with the apple. In my view, "the apple" is the grammatical topic and the grammatical object, but there is no grammatical subject. The flavor of the negative feeling of this sentence could be rendered in informal American English by something like: "Someone ate the apple on me/him/her/them/you/us." Notice that in this case the negative effect is not on the apple, but on someone else that is unstated.

鱼吃了. yú chīle. The fish was eaten.

鱼被吃了. yú bèi chīle. Unfortunately, someone ate the fish.

鱼被他吃了. yú bèi tā chīle. He ate the fish, darn it!

I hope this helps!

[babygodzilla]

holy crap... that's a long explanation. yeah that helps a lot, thanks!

i especially like the examples on the "fate" of the apple... poor apple... i feel a little bad now... haha

ok i read the whole thing but im gonna read it again to make sure i got it. thanks!