Cantonese vs Mandarin in Hong Kong?

[Young Sing]

Cantonese is a way of life in HK. 100years down the road, Cantonese still prevail. However, I have to agree that the level of spoken Mandarin has improved over the years since the early 90s.

[Quest]

The idea that "Mandarin is a power language" is not really embraced in Hong Kong.

The fact is, Mandarin is not a power language even in the mainland. It's just being forced on dialect speakers, and helped by the massive migrants who usually speak another dialect at home, but out of necessity have to speak mandarin in their adopted towns and cities... Most people would switch to their own dialects whenever possible.

I think some Westerners have adopted/acquired the Beijing centric view, because they take residence there and watch Beijing centric entertainment. But outside of the Beijing area, few Chinese people think of the language or the place much, and by no means would they associate any chicness with Beijing, the opposite is closer to reality.

[Young Sing]

put it that way... when 2 chinese meets, the common language is Mandarin.... just like when two Caucasain meets (one from US and one from Europe).. the common language is English.

[Quest]

Or put it this way, Mandarin is a tool not a language of choice.

[geraldc]

Written Cantonese is making more and more of an appearance, you won't see it in subtitles of TV programs (other than the Cable channels, BTW Iron Chef with Cantonese subtitles is a laugh). A large number of the adverts that now appear on the MTR feature written Cantonese, including the safety ads for things like holding onto the escalators. Admittedly these adverts are nearly always humourous, but it's certainly a sign that Cantonese isn't on the way out.

[sjcma]

On a related note, what do people in HK mean when they say 'Chinese'? When browsing job classifieds, I was under the impression that it would refer to Mandarin - until I stumbled across a few that were asking for Chinese AND Mandarin...

The term Chinese or 中文 means different things to different people. Those from Hong Kong often use it to mean spoken Cantonese and written Chinese. Those from the mainland or Taiwan use it to mean spoken Mandarin. It was quite interesting to hear some HKers commenting on how a Mandarin speaker does not know 中文, and then hearing the same Mandarin speaker commenting on how the aforementioned HKers do not know 中文. I guess everyone is dumb and illiterate!

Things become even more ridiculous when those comments are translated into English. I've heard many-a-times HKers saying, in English, that so-and-so (from Taiwan or Mainland) do not know how to speak Chinese. The native English speaker then presents a puzzled look and asks "He doesn't speak Chinese? But isn't he from China?"

And don't get me started on why Catholics aren't Christians...

[atitarev]

Or put it this way, Mandarin is a tool not a language of choice.

I think it must be considered an important tool to master, at least in China, am I wrong? And is Hong Kong - China?

[wushijiao]

I think it must be considered an important tool to master, at least in China, am I wrong?

I think it is important to master in China, but not that difficult. Since TV and radio are almost solely in Putonghua and the whole education system is in Putonghua, most young people now speak it effortlessly (even people from dialect areas).

However, Jive Turkey mentioned that the lingua franca in HK is Cantonese, or 中文 if you will. I also wonder if English can be a lingua franca for the business community, of sorts. I know that when I went to HK this summer, my wife did a lot of shopping, finding that the people working in shops had pretty good English, so they just spoke in English. Of course, the % of Mainlanders who can speak English is low, but the type who might fly down to HK for business (people fairly high up in Chinese and foreign companies) might be able to converse in basic English.

I think some Westerners have adopted/acquired the Beijing centric view, because they take residence there and watch Beijing centric entertainment.

Hehe...that was certainly me at one point.

But outside of the Beijing area, few Chinese people think of the language or the place much, and by no means would they associate any chicness with Beijing, the opposite is closer to reality

I think for really cool, trendy people in Shanghai, Shanghaiese is percieved as more fashionable than Putonghua. At least that's the impression that I get.

[Luobot]

The real reason for speaking Cantonese in Hong Kong, even poorly, is because they'll treat you better if you do. Heck, they'll treat you better if you just speak English, even if they don't understand you (and most educated HK'ers will). I discovered in HK that no one understood my poor Mandarin (well, even my tape recorder doesn't seem to understand my Mandarin), but plenty of HK'ers are studying it themselves. They see the writing on The Wall. I'd like to say, when in Rome, study Latin (it really is such a beautiful language), but nowadays even the Romans are studying Putonghua.

So what's your decision ???

[atitarev]

Wushijiao, do you reckon English will become the lingua franca between China and Hong Kong? Seeing that parents in Hong Kong are more eager for their kids to learn English than Putonghua (see my link), then it is likely to happen. I am not so sure it comes effortlessly for HKers, as they are much less exposed to spoken Mandarin and to written simplified characters (mainlanders are better at reading traditional than HKers are at reading simplified).

[wushijiao]

Wushijiao, do you reckon English will become the lingua franca between China and Hong Kong?

I really couldn't say. Maybe for the business community. I'm sure someone who does business with Mainlanders (ie. Skylee or someone else) could better say how HKers and Mainlanders communicate.

In the link I posted on the other post, it showed that very few students were interested in learning Putonghua, only about 25%.

http://www.chinese-forums.com/index.php?/topic/11313-language-policy-and-language-planning-in-hong-kong

[atitarev]

Thanks, I think it's OK that there is no pressure from CPR to use Putonghua in Hong Kong for education. The market will do a better job - if there is a need for this knowledge, it will be taught and learned. It must be hard to learn all 3 languages - Cantonese, English and Mandarin - one must be linguistically minded to cope with it, the only country in Europe to have trilingual education is Luxemburg.

Do you have a copy of the Action Plan, 2003?

[gato]

It must be hard to learn all 3 languages - Cantonese, English and Mandarin - one must be linguistically minded to cope with it, the only country in Europe to have trilingual education is Luxemburg.

That is actually the situation in most of China where Mandarin is not the home language of students. The mainland is still in short supply of quality English teachers and teaching materials, whereas in HK, I hear that the shortage is in teachers who are fluent in Mandarin.

The language situation in HK is complex. In the couple of times I've been there, I would usually try Mandarin first and if the person doesn't seem to understand or responds in English, I would switch to English. I think there are lots of recent immigrants from Guangdong in HK who work in the service sector and speak Mandarin well, at least better than English. I found that the workers in restaurants and coffee shops catering to Westerners speak more comfortably in English than Mandarin but that those working in Chinese restaurants generally spoke better Mandarin than English. Many of the cab drivers seem not to know Mandarin. I guess most of them are native to HK.

[atitarev]

That is actually the situation in most of China where Mandarin is not the home language of students.

In most of China only one language is used for education (Mandarin) and one as a foreign language (English or other). It makes it two, not three. Dialects are spoken but not taught. Cantonese is only formalised in Hong Kong and Macao. They teach (or supposed to teach) in Putonghua in e.g. Guangzhou. So, although students may be trilingual, they learn their dialects outside curriculum or they don't learn it at all but pick it up from parents, friends, etc.

Many of the cab drivers seem not to know Mandarin. I guess most of them are native to HK.

They didn't have to go through what they did in Beijing - Speak English campaign?

[novemberfog]

I don't really have thing constructive to add, but I just wish to say that this thread is quite interesting. The linguistic situation in Hong Kong has always interested me a great deal.

I have a friend from Switzerland who comes from the French speaking part of the country. Though he studied French & German in school as a mandate of the government, he falls back on English to speak with the German speaking majority of Swiss in his country. He can speak German quite well, but he doesn't like to unless he must. Likewise, his german-speaking coworkers would rather use English than try to get by with the French they learned in school. When I asked my friend why he would choose English over German, he said that by focusing on English it has enabled him to communicate with people all over Europe and the world, as opposed to the German-speaking part of Europe only. He feels bad about not speaking the majority language of his country, but he says that English allowed him to make more money and improve his status in his job. For him it was purely economic choice.

I wonder what will become of HK. I have no doubt that Cantonese will remain the language of the home and family in HK, but for business I guess it is all up for grabs with English or Mandarin. I suppose it will come down to mix of both. Who knows though. 60 years ago French was the international language and the language of diplomats--times change quickly.

[geraldc]

Hong Kong is service orientated, those that need to speak Mandarin, shop assitants, hotel staff etc, for the most part can now communicate in Mandarin. In most cases the the Cantonese speaker would try and speak Mandarin rather than try communicate in English with a Mandarin speaker. The standard of Mandarin at times isn't that high, lots of people just "bend" Cantonese.

Public announcements, MTR, Disneyland, Ocean Park etc are now all trilingual.

[Ian_Lee]

The reason why English, not Mandarin, is the power language in HK is apparent.

All eight universities in HK use English as the medium of instruction -- even including the Chinese University. If you don't know Mandarin, that does not hurt your chance of getting into university. But if your English is lousy, you will definitely not be admitted.

That is why so many parents prefer private English tutorial class for their kids.

Cantonese, as the main medium of teaching in HK, has only gained significant ground after '97. The theory of "teaching by mother tongue" was one of the most controversial policies of Tung administration.

[skylee]

All eight universities in HK use English as the medium of instruction -- even including the Chinese University.

But not exclusively, at least not so when I was a student there. And there are now 9 universities in HK, as Shue Yan College has recently been given university status and become the only private university in HK.

[Ardison]

As a Hong Kong people, I think living there speaking Cantonese is essential in daily living. When you make a order in 茶餐厅, you will probably say it in Cantonese.

Of course you would choose your way of living. You may go to a western restaurant and you simpy communicate in English. Very convenience. Various choices.

For your reference, Cantonese and English is official languages in HongKong before 1997 and Mandarin is added after. Generally, Mandarin is not so popular though becoming widespread nowadays.

[Jive Turkey]

In most of China only one language is used for education

This is simply untrue. Even in northern areas, local Mandarin dialects prevail over standard PTH in most classrooms, large cities being the exception. In the South, only in the largest of cities is PTH used in classrooms to a consistent degree, and this is still often only in Chinese subject lessons. In Guangdong, if you step into maths, science or art classrooms, you will hear mostly dialect unless you are in Shenzhen or Guangzhou. In most rural areas south of the Yangtze, you will hear very little PTH in primary or secondary school classrooms. Rural schools are doing well if they can manage to teach Chinese language lessons in PTH.