hey, ho, 没有！

[freefall]

So I was busting out a conversation in Chinese and said:

我不说得比你标准。

And was told that I shouldn't say it that way, but rather:

1. 我没有说得比你标准。 (or 2. 我没有你说的标准。) I don't speak more standardly than you.

Now I understand the second structure in parenthesis, but I don't understand why 没有 should be used in place of 不 in the first. Can anyone explain?

I have learned 没有 as (among other things) basically the negator of 了 statements, but the opposite of 1. 我没有说得比你标准 with the meaning I intended is not 我说得比你标准了 (indicating a new condition) but rather just a descriptive statement, which would mean "I speak more standardly than you." -> 我说得比你标准. So why is 没有 used to negate that?

Hope my meaning is clear...

Thanks!

[trien27]

Because in ancient Chinese usage, Cantonese/ other southern dialect is used. They used a different character "wu" in Mandarin/"mo" in Cantonese (meaning "to have not", which is the same meaning as "mei you", which is mostly used in Mandarin.) "wu" = "mei you" but "mei you" doesn't = bu(not). Wu doesn't = Bu either. If the phrase you said in Chinese were initially spoken in Mandarin, then Bu would be used today. It's a phasing or terminology passed down from ancient usage, so it might not make sense in using "mei you", but not "bu".

[Quest]

A more natural way to say it: 我说得没有你标准。

Search around for previous threads explaining 没有 and 不。It's not about dialects.

[skylee]

Consider -

I do not speak it more perfectly than you - 我說得不比你（更）標準。

I speak it more perfectly than you - 我說得比你（更）標準。

I speak it less perfectly than you - 我說得沒有你（那麽）標準。

[Altair]

I think there are a couple of different issues going on here. First let me talk about the English.

You may have intended to say two different things:

I don't speak in as standard way as you.

I don't speak in a more standard way than you.

The two do not quite mean the same thing, in English or in the Chinese equivalent. To be more clear, the second sentence does not exclude that the two people speak in an equally standard way.

The Chinese pattern that expresses "as standard as you" is: 有你(那么)标准. The pattern that expresses "more standard than you" is 比你标准.

In English you normally negate the verb, but occasionally can create a pattern to negate the complement. E.g.:

Negating the verb:

I don't speak in as standard way as you.

I don't speak in a more standard way than you.

Negating the complement:

I speak in not as standard way as you.

I speak in a less standard way than you.

In Chinese, you negate the complement. E.g.:

我说得没有你标准。

我说得不比你标准。

You may wonder why you cannot simply say 我不说 in this context. The reason is that negation in all languages is much more complex than people realize. Compare the following English sentences: "You must speak" and "You have to speak." They mean more or less the same thing. Now compare these two: "You must not speak" and "You don't have to speak." The two sentences were both made negative, but ended up with exactly opposite meanings. The problem is that adding negation to a sentence sometimes negates the verb, sometimes it negates some other word or phrase, and sometimes it negates the entire sentence.

In Chinese, 我说 can mean "I speak," but often it is more equivalent to "when/if I speak" or sometimes "in my speaking." 我说得没有你标准 means something like: "When I speak, I don't achieve having (the same level as) you being standard." It would not make sense to say: "When I don't speak, I achieve having (the same level as) you being standard.

By the way, I think the issue of whether to choose 不 or 没有 is easily resolved if you look at the positive form of the patterns. The 有 in 有你标准 must be negated in the normal way, by replacing it with 没 or 没有. The 比 in 比你标准 is negated with 不, also as normal.

I hope this helps.

[HashiriKata]

So I was busting out a conversation in Chinese and said:

我不说得比你标准。

And was told that I shouldn't say it that way' date=' but rather:

1. 我没有说得比你标准。

...I don't understand why 没有 should be used in place of 不 in the first. Can anyone explain?[/quote']

In a Chinese sentence with a complement, the negation can fall on the main verb (as in example 1 below) or on the complement (example 2):

1. 我不说了。

2. 我说得不好。

Freefall seems to have wanted to know why the negation of the main verb in his sentence should be 没有, and should not be 不. Most of the replies here seem to focus on the negation of the complement instead of the main verb, so I'm not sure if his question has been answered. Here is my try :

不 is used to generalise, pointing towards something that is true (or intended to be true) at least from now on.

没有, is used on the other hand to negate an action, an instance of something that has already occurred, and is therefore referring mainly to the past. Therefore, you can say:

1. 我不说什么。 (I won't say anything)

2. 我没有说什么。(I didn't say anything)

To go back to Freefall's sentence: 我不说得比你标准： 不 is not good here because it sounds deterministic, as if you've decided never to speak as correctly as the hearer. 没有 (in 我没有说得比你标准) is better here because the sentence only reports a past event, an intance of what's actually happened and it doesn't say anything about your future or potential.

[Altair]

To go back to Freefall's sentence: 我不说得比你标准： 不 is not good here because it sounds deterministic, as if you've decided never to speak as correctly as the hearer. 没有 (in 我没有说得比你标准) is better here because the sentence only reports a past event, an intance of what's actually happened and it doesn't say anything about your future or potential.

我不说得比你标准 and 我没有说得比你标准?

Are these sentences really acceptable in any circumstance? I thought they were just as unacceptable as saying 不说得出* or 没有说得出* ("was unable to answer"), and for more or less the same reason. I realize that these are different types of complements; but I as I tried to explain in my previous post, I thought the logic was ultimately the same.

[HashiriKata]

Hi Altair, it's interesting to read your reply , because it appears to me how easy things can be misunderstood by means of the language we use, as illustrated by your question: "Are these sentences really acceptable in any circumstance?" Don't you think this sentence can lead people to understanding it in two opposite ways?

Similarly, the usages of 得 in Chinese seem to confuse you. No, the 得 in your examples 不说得出* or 没有说得出* is not the same as the one in Freefall's sentences, just as different as the usages of 得 in the flollowing sentences:

1. 他说得很快。(comparable to Freefall's)

2. 我看得见了。(comparable to yours)

[gougou]

In a Chinese sentence with a complement, the negation can fall on the main verb (as in example 1 below)

But there is no complement in example 1, is there?

[HashiriKata]

Well spotted! No, not in Example 1, but you shouldn't miss it in Example 2. Example 1 is only to show that "the negation can fall on the (main) verb"

[freefall]

Thanks for the informative replies! The apparent "correctness" of 我没有说得比你标准, like so many other Chinese constructions, seems to depend on who I consult. I asked a second native speaker who said "it sounds a bit strange" and that she wouldn't say it that way.

[HashiriKata]

The apparent "correctness" of 我没有说得比你标准, like so many other Chinese constructions, seems to depend on who I consult.

That's true, as the answer very often depends on the kind of contexts your informant can think of.

[Altair]

Quote:

The apparent "correctness" of 我没有说得比你标准, like so many other Chinese constructions, seems to depend on who I consult.

That's true, as the answer very often depends on the kind of contexts your informant can think of.

:evil:

I wonder if this occurs on forums for learning English or on other language forums? Certainly, the quality of the answer can depend on the quality of the question and the preconceptions of the questioner. Then again, I do not recall having these sorts of problems with any other language with a formal grammar that I have studied, and I have given a decent amount of study to many different types of languages from at least four unrelated language families.

A similar question I have been unable to resolve, and even posted an earlier question about, is how to say "not doing something." For instance, if you hear a band playing at a party, but no on is dancing, how would you say: "The guests aren't dancing. (We need to change the music.)"?

1. 客人不在跳舞了

2. 客人没有在跳舞了

3. 客人没有跳舞了

4. 客人不跳舞了

By textbooks show all four structures, but disagree with each other about usage. In case I have inadvertently biased the answer because of the context, are any of the following forms unacceptable in the meaning: "Are the guests dancing at the moment?":

5. 现在客人在不在跳舞?

6. 现在客人在跳舞没有?

7. 现在客人跳舞没有?

8. 现在客人跳舞不跳舞?

[Adrien]

This is an interesting question.

I am a Chinese unversity student. Here I just want to explain the difference between 不 and 没有, hoping it will help.

First let me give you two examples:

1. 我不说谎

2. 我没有说谎

The first sentence means that you are an honest person, and you don't like to tell lies. So, it represents your willing.

The second sentence means that you didn't tell lies or you have not told lies. It represents the fact.

So, if you want to say :I don't speak english as well as you do. It is supposed to tell the truth. In this way, we should use 没有