Is it possible to be perfect with your tones?

[CheeSaw2006]

What I mean is, is it possible to never make a tone mistake? (obviously a non-native speaker, who learned the language later in life)

[DrZero]

I think so. I don't think Da Shan makes tone mistakes. I believe the newer research suggests it is possible for some adult learners to acquire a language with no accent. But to achieve that level is very, very rare.

[CheeSaw2006]

You say: "I believe the newer research suggests it is possible for some adult learners to acquire a language with no accent" (any internet links to articles, Im very interested in second language learning/acquisition). I wish we could find out how DaShan learned Mandarin so well.

[DrZero]

CheeSaw,

I wish I could remember where I read that, but I can't. But, have you ever looked at Linglist's Ask a Linguist feature? It's got professional linguists answering questions from the public.

[CheeSaw2006]

Yes I am familiar with that site. I'll have to browse through it.

[Gulao]

Considering even native speakers, even highly educated ones, make tone errors, I'd say no. It's possible to have the tones locked in your head as distinguishing certain words such that you can tell when you've made a mistake, and this should be considered normal as low as an intermediate level, in my opinion.

[CheeSaw2006]

Gulao you say "Considering even native speakers, even highly educated ones, make tone errors, I'd say no." Maybe I am wrong but I dont this statement is correct. If you are a native speaker and learned it at birth then there is no real conscious effort or thinking about the tones so it is all automatic for a native speaker. So someone feel free to correct me if I'm wrong but I do not think the example of native speakers doesn't factor into my question. An aspect of language like grammar is not always perfect even by native speakers of any language.

[adrianlondon]

never make a tone mistake

Not possible. As said above, even native speakers make the occasional (albeit rare) mistake. Same as with English - sometimes you say the word incorrectly because you were distracted, or momentarily got confused between two words, or simply talk too quickly and swap things around, e.g. spoonerisms.

They're rare, but you did seem to want to use the word "never" in your opening question. Maybe that was a mistake? ;)

[roddy]

Yeah, anyone can stumble over their words, particularly if they are busy, hungover, etc.

If you ask the question "is it possible to be as good as a native speaker" I'd say yes, it's possible. But there's a diminishing returns issue here - the extra time it would take you would probably be better spent on learning more vocabulary, listening skills, gardening, etc. And I think its dubious as an aim - imagine how nervous you'd be every time you opened your mouth, terrified you might ruin your so-far perfect record . . .

[self-taught-mba]

Not possible. As said above, even native speakers make the occasional (albeit rare) mistake.

I find it quite common with native speakers actually. And certain words get them every time like gong1xu1 (supply and demand) or chu3nv3 (virgin). They invevitably think the first character is 4th tone because it is a shuang1yin1zi (disambiguation: yi shuang1 kuai4zi; fa1yin1; han4zi). Alot of shuang1yin1zi get them I find.

Also the first character used in a 3+3 tone combination tends to get screwed up a lot when they're put into isolation if it is more commonly found paired elsewhere. And then of course there's just loves of people that don't speak very "standard".

[DrZero]

I think all of this is splitting hairs. The spirit of the original question was clearly whether a second-language Mandarin learner could learn tones to native level or not. That means the only "mistakes" they would make would be the same ones a native speaker might make.

I would even argue that they aren't mistakes if native speakers make them. Maybe they are "variations." There are many non-standard variations that are still native.

Speaking of pronunciation, not tones, my wife says "shuo" (speak) like "suo" because she is from near Shanghai. Does that make her not a native Mandarin speaker?

[CheeSaw2006]

DrZero is right, in that the spirit of my original question was whether a second language learner could learn tones to a native-level. I was under the mistaken impression that tones were a facet of the language in which native speakers never made a mistake, which is why I worded my initial post the way I did.

[roddy]

Then yes, I'd be happy to say it's possible to reach native-speaker levels of accuracy (although you could split further hairs if you want and ask which native-speaker. Zhou on the street, or a CCTV newsreader )

[leosmith]

Absolutely. And remember to make sure you're producing the sound the right way. Even if the sound seems correct, if a native sees your mouth doing something unexpected, she may still get confused.

http://www.sinosplice.com/lang/pronunciation/04/

[Gulao]

I'm with Roddy. It's certainly possible to reach a native speaker's level of tone accuracy. The key is, as I said, to be able to interpret the tone on a subconscious level, and that comes through listening practice and use.

You can run into problems if you've incorrectly memorised some tones, as I have. I repeatedly mispronounce 美国, and I've found it very difficult to reverse the process since the incorrect tones are a subconscious knowledge, and not something I have to think about.

[Czech Cara]

One surely can grasp the four tones {wonder about Cantonese`s 6} to a certain level of perfection, though it takes hell. Those who say it comes through acquisition, not concious learning, are right, I guess. When you hear a sound, out of context, and you automatically think of the correct tone possible meanings {not all four, like me} then you are on the right track, I guess.

On the other hand, there is always a difference between "textbook“ language and what is really pronounced. Sometimes our Mandarin might sound akward, because it is too correct...?

As for Da Shan, I want to jump into the screen grab his tongue, brain, vocal cords and put it to my head.... But still he a prove that we can learn a lot. Pitty he is a lousy actor, ref. to Lang Shi Ning tv series

[laowai1980]

Ok , I didn't want to open a new thread, especially since this one is pretty relevant to my question. I attached a small piece of text I recorded about Shanghai. Was wondering what you guys can say about my tones, and generally if you can make out what I am saying there. Any comments and suggestions are highly appreciated. Thanx in advance.

shanghai.mp3

[anonymoose]

I attached a small piece of text I recorded about Shanghai. Was wondering what you guys can say about my tones, and generally if you can make out what I am saying there. Any comments and suggestions are highly appreciated.

I don't think it sounds very natural as it is too staccato, although I guess to a certain extent this is because you were reading a text rather than speaking off the top of your head. Also, there were a fair few tone mistakes, but nevertheless, you speak quite clearly and I didn't have a problem understanding.

By the way, I'm not a native speaker.

[Koneko]

Was wondering what you guys can say about my tones, and generally if you can make out what I am saying there.

Yes, it's quite good! I could understand all of it.

There were only a few words you mispronounced.

1. 城市

2. 严重

3. 时候

4. 情况

Keep it up!

K.

Addendum:-

Oh, don't worry about speaking like a native speaker. You will get there one day. Don't be afraid of making mistakes - that's how we learn anyway! After all, no one is perfect.

[laowai1980]

Thank you for your comments. Yeah I have this problem with words coming out as separate chunks, not a natural flow. Guess this is due to my thinking about if I put the tones right. That's sort of priority for me now. Ok, at least there's not much of a problem understanding me, as soon as I get my tones sorted, I'll be working on intonations. I don't have a tutor, so have to ask you guys to check if I am moving in the right direction. Besides that it's just me comparing my Chinese with the audio material I listen to, no other checks. So I'll be posting these from time to time, hope it's ok ;)