Do you hate most other foreigners?

[imitation]

Apart from the other Asian countries of people who are studying at my university I basically hate all my other foreigner USA, Candian, English, other english speaking countries friends, they do nothing but complain and the long termers are the worst. I've been studying Chinese for 3 semesters now and despite the fact that reading and writing is quite good, i'm still stuck in these circles of friends because of my personality to like to go out. But this new years as I sat with them and listened to the same stories of complaint i'd thought were first funny a year and a half a go I realised how much i'd grown to despise most of these people who's "Near Fluent" chinese as they'd described it when I first got here had still not improved from telling the waitress they wanted a glass in bad tones and worse in bad manners.

I basically regret most of the friendships of made here, but at the same time see them as inevitable (i was thinking 必然 when I wrote that cause really it makes more sense doesn't it).

Console please

Oh also Happy New Year

[md1101]

i think you just need to find the right circle of friends. i agree with you somewhat but always thought that my circle of friends was different. who knows really. the type of foreigners you are talking about certainly exist in china but then of course there are many (like a lot of people on this forum) that aren't. they're more humble and actually try to change themselves a little for china rather than expect china to make all the changes for them.

just keep working on your chinese and make some more chinese friends if you really think these guys are holding you back. plus there are plenty of travellers in china that have moved beyond the type of people you're talking about (feel famous, think they're fluent, take the moral high ground on everything, think they're particularly attractive) and don't make the same mistakes that they're all making and assume you're special. i know i used to and it held my chinese back A LOT.

[Meng Lelan]

Happy New Year to you as well, I was in the exactly same situation as you. I hated my American classmates when I was in Beijing and Tianjin. They all complained about China, the Chinese, even the Chinese language that they came to study. So I would just go out on my own by myself into the real Chinese world and made friends, some of whom are still my friends after many years (and my American classmates then complained that I was making all those Chinese friends).

Try doing this. Far more rewarding than what you are experiencing now. Start today as your New Year's resolution.

[pandaxiongmao]

Don't hate the people, hate their attitudes toward learning.

The thing you complain about is really a lot more universal - a lot of people think they are better/more qualified than they actually are, so they despise other people or things around them. It just happens that you are in China while you see these people acting this way. I bet back in your home country, you probably knew some people with the same attitude as this group of "friends" you have in China.

I bet if you bother to try and make Chinese friends, you will find many Chinese people with the same attitude. Just keep moving on until you find the right group of people. I agree you should make this a New Year's Resolution.

[Crivens200]

Jeez, if you think it's bad in class, don't ever get a job with a western company in Shanghai. It's hard to put in to words my hatred of most of the western population in Shanghai - it's filled with quite horrid middle aged fat western businessmen who think they are sex gods cos they have whores chasing after them . . . . . but then I suppose they have their whore wife at home so they'd be used to that.

[gougou]

Ironically, language schools are among the worst places to find people with a sincere interest in the country. The people I've met were a fun bunch all of them, but I had the impression that to them it didn't matter whether they were in China or in Argentina. I also got to know a few of those who are always complaining, but I cut them off quite quickly. After they stared at me blankly when I told them how great China was, there was little else I could find to talk about...

I think if you expand your social activities beyond your university, you will be able to find plenty of interesting people with a sincere desire to be here and great respect for the country and its people. Also, you could get to know some Chinese people while going out. It's not as if there is only Westerners that are enjoying nightlife here; neither are all the Chinese who go out whores or drunkards. While you will inevitably meet those as well, there are plenty of kind, intelligent people too. So let your desire to go out not be a reason to stick with a bunch of people you don't really like!

[adrianlondon]

I hate most of the people in Chaoyang, many of whom are foreigners. Does that count?

It's the "I'm richer than you, so will treat everyone else like dirt and be rude to all the staff I deal with" attitude which gets me. The trouble is, the rich Chinese all seem to love that, so they're just as bad. At least with those Chinese they tend to think the only reason to earn money is to make sure everyone else knows how much you've got, so you can see them coming a mile off with their head-to-toe Burberry, LV bags and their too-big-to-get-thru-traffic cars.

The foreigners could almost pass as older students (such as me!) until they open their mouths and talk about tax systems, expenses, and hand me their business cards.

The foreigners (the Westerners, anyway) at BNU where I'm studying all seem really keen on getting to know Beijing, China, and making Chinese friends. The Koreans just want to pass exams, the Japanese try to moan about how dirty everything is, as a sort of revenge for how badly they're treated by the locals, and the Indonesians tend to live in Zhongguancun, buying stuff.

I've got some more stereotypes lying around somewhere, but that'll do for the moment ;)

[gougou]

Just stumbled across a quote by Bill Murray: "The truth is, anybody that becomes famous is an ass for a year and a half. You've got to give them a year and a half, two years. They are getting so much smoke blown, and their whole world gets so turned upside down, their responses become distorted. I give everybody a year or two to pull it together because, when it first happens, I know how it is."

Seems to be pretty much what happens to many when they first come to China...

[mr.stinky]

well, first off, chinese is really, really hard. they're probably aware their ability is

limited, and are overcompensating. give me another year, and i might think i'm

fluent, too.

about the complaining? ever'body does it, lets off steam. better than getting drunk

to deal with the frustration. and why repeat the same complaints to the other

furr'ners? you think the chinese will listen and understand, given the limited

speaking ability of your friends? who else can they speak to.

maybe it's time to move on, widen your circle of friends, get out and meet the

chinese instead of hanging with disgruntled expats.

[md1101]

Just stumbled across a quote by Bill Murray: "The truth is, anybody that becomes famous is an ass for a year and a half. You've got to give them a year and a half, two years. They are getting so much smoke blown, and their whole world gets so turned upside down, their responses become distorted. I give everybody a year or two to pull it together because, when it first happens, I know how it is."

wow that is so true. i reckon it took me about that long. i think old Bill Murray has said it quite well - though he's probably talking about some greater sort of fame.

[woliveri]

So far I've met only a few foreigners who I've made friends with and they've all gone home

Type 1 foreigner: Students. Most have been good here in Shanghai but most have been from Europe (Germany) and Canada (of the non-asians). Some of the Japanese and Koreans, some are ok, the rest are like adrianlondon said.

Type 2 foreigner: Workers. Most of these have be utter asses. Lying through their teeth so much I couldn't stand to be next to them. And they are from my home country. I expected better but sadly it's been a learning experience.

Of course, there are enough Chinese asses to go around too.

But, all in all it's a good experience here.

[roddy]

I don't know - letting off steam might be understandable now and then, but there's certainly a brand of people who make whining a hobby. You get them everywhere, but they do seem to be more prevalent here - I think it's just an easy topic of conversation for groups of people who don't really have anything in common but have been thrown together due to working / studying at the same place. Make other friends, or stay at home with a pile of DVDs, for your own psychological health.

[Lu]

I agree with all the people who say you should make new friends. Of all the Chinese who want to be your friend, surely some of them will be fun to hang out with; and of all the foreigners, some of them new to China, surely some of them will love China as much as you do.

[djwebb2004]

1. I have never actually met a foreigner in China who genuinely had good Chinese. Where are these HSK 11 certificate-holders? They must be hiding under a stone.

2. Imitation, you say these people are your "friends" and you "hate" them. I couldn't really trust someone who pretends to be friends with people he hates. If you disagree with what they have to say, and they are your friends, I don't see why you don't say "hey, guys, we can be negative about this country, but seeing as we are here why don't we try to enjoy it?" and see what they say? You could even help them by initiating that kind of conversation. You don't have to hang round with people you hate listening to things that annoy you if you don't want to.

3. China is genuinely difficult in some aspects, but you guys in Beijing have it the easiest: the most modern, forward-looking people, more goods in the shops, better service, the lot. But, it is undeniable that no one comes to China for the good service. There are things to let off steam about. I tried to post a 10 yuan CD home the other day to someone who needed it, and the woman in the post office told me, although it was a small thing, it could only go as a parcel for 180 yuan; another post office let me put it in an envelope and charged me 16 yuan. You do get this deliberately obstructive sort of behaviour, but you do also get a kind of super-willingness to help foreigners at times. So you never which one you will get. To say, you should experience discrimination at times, and gobsmackingly obstructive behaviour and poor service, and never complain once about it is just unrealistic. Chinese people also know that this sort of thing happens. I accompanied a Chinese friend to do something the other day - and I don't want to put all details on the Internet - and saw a very very obstructive harridan knock him back and saw that he moaned too afterwards. To see Chinese people queuing up to do some official business and all smiling and virtually begging the officials to be kind to them - there is a Chinese saying something like 拳不打笑脸 (this may not be quite right, I am not sure of the exact rendering) - is actually a little heartbreaking. But the Chinese reaction is not to get angry or shout, because if the official holds all the cards, then it is not going to help, however unfair that may seem to be.This is not the totality of what life in China is like; it is one aspect. But it can get you down and seems so unnecessary, but we as foreigners do probably have it easier than the locals.

4. So there are things to let off steam about. But if you can't find a nice side to China, you can hardly live here. Basically I love the language, the chengyu, the characters. And making friends with Chinese people does show you that they too experience hassles, and they themselves are nice people, so harridan-like officials are not all China has to offer. Chinese friends help you enjoy China, and, as patriots, they don't always like an exclusive fixation on the bad side of China, which is, after all, not upbuilding to talk about in an exclusive way. It can seem confusing: Chinese officials can seem to lack even one shred of humanity, and yet your Chinese friends can seem much more caring than would be normal in the West. There is a funny trade-off. Spend more time with Chinese friends. And if you have things to do, formalities to complete or a lot of purchases to make, take your Chinese friends with you, and they can probably smooth the way a bit.

5. Service levels? It is difficult not to feel annoyed at service levels in China: one example is the waitresses who stand next to an empty fridge and don't put the beer in and expect a "meiyou" to suffice as a reason why there is no cold beer. Chinese people generally accept meiyou as an answer, and this is one reason why service levels are low, but you cannot aim in every trip out to the restaurant to personally work wonders in improving service levels. So you have to get used to some things. It is annoying that supermarkets like Carrefour and Walmart are run in such a Chinese way, with large numbers of items out of stock and all that sort of thing. But Chinese culture is accepting of people not doing their jobs properly and working with low efficiency, and this is not going to change just for a few foreigners. It seems odd that Chinese people have a reputation as hard workers in the West when things are the opposite in China. Things are gradually improving however.

6. It can be very one-track-record-like to sit with foreigners and discuss these things. Actually, what do you have in common with other foreigners, other than the fact that they are foreigners? Nothing, really. I have sat in foreigner cafés in Kunming, but I have little to say to them other than to complain about China, or listen to their complaints, so I don't go any more. I could tell about the books I am reading and the chengyu I am picking up every day, but 99% of these guys can only speak basic Chinese, and so there is nothing really in common there either. Basically I am not in China to mix with Americans, and I feel I am wasting my time when I speak to them, because I can't pick their brains or learn anything from them. When I meet English teachers, I am often astonished that people whose English is quite often really bad have been hired as teachers. The only foreigner I ever met in Kunming who I felt was really worth talking to was an Israeli woman who spoke much better than average Chinese, seemed to have much more interesting opinions than the café crowd, extending far beyond the boring retailing of politically correct ideas on race/sex/culture of young Westerners fresh out of university. However, she has gone home. Imitation, I know I would find your moaning friends a bit samey and would get bored of them as you have, but looking at your various posts on chinese-forums, you don't seem to have anything original to contribute yourself either. Make some Chinese friends, and don't spend your time telling them China is not democratic enough, or whatever, but give them a chance to teach you something about Chinese people and their take on life.

[simonlaing]

Hi guys,

I lied in China 5 years and definitely have found many different kinds of westerners while I was there working and studying.

I found cool, westerners

(a.k.a. foreigners whose main past time wasNOT to complain about life in china in some way) seemed to have two characteristics,:

1. Have studied Chinese to at least an intermediate level and 2 lived in China more that a year.(though not necessarially consecutive months)

Now there are exceptions but I have generally found this. Students usually go back after 6 months or a year, and purely workers or english teachers.

Also I have lived in Nanjing for most of the time which means most of my chinese friends liked talking Chinese with me rather than english (as easier to communicate in). This often was difficult in Shanghai where everyone wanted to speak English.

Anyway, Try using this criteria to find friends as it may be helpful.

have fun,

Simon:)

P.S. I did meet half a dozen successful Cool Expats while playing Ultimate Frisbee. They seemed to be able to go between the two worlds of pure Chinese Friends speaking Mandarin and the expat clubbing crew who know only get-by chinese if that. Most of this sort had studied in China (or Chinese) before they got the sweet (Money) Job in Shanghai.

[calibantastic]

just wanna chime in here since I've got a good solid example of the parallel worlds existing right here in the WuDaoKou area of Beijing.

exhibit A = Lush (great food, few Chinese, filled with exchange students)

exhibit B = 盒子咖啡馆 (few exchange students, Qinghua style Chinese bohemia at its finest, global intelligentsia unite! so-so food, but try the teramisu)

Guess which one I'm writing this from?

Only problem is 盒子 is a little tricky to find, but there's a map on their website:

http://www.hzcafe.com

I can't say I wholly sympathize with the original poster. As DJWebb wrote-

you say these people are your "friends" and you "hate" them. I couldn't really trust someone who pretends to be friends with people he hates. If you disagree with what they have to say, and they are your friends, I don't see why you don't say "hey, guys, we can be negative about this country, but seeing as we are here why don't we try to enjoy it?" and see what they say? You could even help them by initiating that kind of conversation. You don't have to hang round with people you hate listening to things that annoy you if you don't want to.

Imitation is complaining about a culture s/he chose to be a part of, just like the "friends" are complaining about their chosen surroundings. Exchange students, traveling expats, we're an institution unto ourselves. I always like to say- generalize and judge and accept a fellow based on their chosen subculture, not on their mainculture as it's assigned from birth.

It isn't easy to meet Chinese friends who share my subculture, and with whom conversation is as pleasant as it is with my fellow foreigners, but the advantage of being a foreigner gives me an easy-in to hang out with accomplished people in the scene of my choice. See Kaiser Kuo's reprinted endpiece in That's Beijing. (January, the one about rock, art, and film groupies) My Chinese has improved by leaps and bounds by straining to participate in conversations about things that really matter to me!

Weaning myself off of the exchange student lifestyle is a challenge though. I'm glad Imitation wants to make that leap. I know what s/he is talking about from having previously signed up for 2 semesters at BCLU, mostly because I'm nearing 30 and want to ignore that by being around dopey college students some more. It didn't work. Now I'm sick of the place. I can't blame the Americans though, since I've met FAR more Europeans who've got nothing but disparagement and discrimination to offer for cultural commentary. I know a good number of Americans who do their best to get full immersion and understanding of their environment, and a few who make them look horrible by association. Again, better to judge by subculture.

Now to continue pushing my preferences on all of ya's-

Self-taught MBA's startup language school is an awesome start for beginners. You learn Chinese immersed with real Beijingers or Wang Shifu kicks yo ass. Maybe he kicks yo ass anyway. Smarty-smarties like me highly recommend

http://www.1monthchinese.com

Also I'm having a party around 8pm on Monday Jan. 8th here at 盒子. -In celebration of Elvis's birthday, and to introduce some of my Chinese friends in the same industry to each other. Come on down and hang out! Meet oodles of awesome peoples from all over the globe. Maybe even get some free food and drink. http://www.hzcafe.com

[got_no_jaffas]

if the foreigners you hang with in beijing are idiots, and you hang around with them, what does that make you? i made a decision to not mix with foriegners unless they made an effort with the chinese, which is about perhaps 10% at best at blcu. it's hard because you're left on your own trying to mix with the local chinese. depends on whether you want to have a great time or learn chinese.

but just as much as complaining about foreigners attitudes in beijing, you're going to get the same from chinese in the UK who will complain about the prices & not bother to step into a pub or make friends with british people. the more you travel, the more you see that everybody does it. just a normal part of humanity.

but not all foreigners are like that, some do make an effort, but it's quite a low ratio. you just need to find them.

[thph2006]

When I first saw the this thread the title drew me in like a magnet. I had to see if this was a joke or some hate-monger or something altogether different. After reading all the posts it seems the posters really do have a great deal of distain for foreigners in China. It's funny though, by the names I found it impossible to tell whether the posters complaining about foreigners were actually Chinese nationals or something else. Anyway, as a fat old white foreigner as one of the posters described, perhaps I can add my perspective. I live in the US, have never lived in China but have visited several times. I'm also married to a Chinese national who just got her US citizenship. To a person, everyone I know who has had any exposure to China has made a concious effort to treat their Chinese compatriots with a great deal of friendship and respect. At the same time we would all be well served to recognize that Chinese and American people grow up in very different cultural systems and even with the greatest care there will be inadvertent misunderstandings and misinterpretations between the two when they come together. I remember when my inlaws came to live with us for a year in America. They spoke no English and I spoke no Chinese. I thought we all got along famously. Looking back on that time with the benefit of a much deeper knowledge of Chinese culture and language I can now see that a lot of what I said and did could have been interpreted negatively by a Chinese person. The same goes for my inlaw's behavior. For example when they kept demanding (in my mind) that I eat more food. How about when I kept insulting them by saying no? Of course I didn't understand that in China it would be an insult if they had not tried to stuff me and they didn't understand that in America it's expected that when you're full you'll just say no to more. The thing that kept our feelings from degenerating to the opinions in this thread is the mutual knowledge that we all had good intentions. Because of that our relationship has blossomed into a very deep bond. Now my wife complains that her family likes me better than her! I can't help but think that much of the negativity in this thread may be based on misunderstanding of cultural differences and unwillingness to tolerate them a little bit in an effort to foster better relationships. Afterall, think about it. People are just people. What's the chance that every foreigner is an asshole? Not likely, so maybe we could all benefit from walking in the other person's shoes for a while and when they clash with our culture helping to guide them to better cultural behavior in their adopted home. I sure hope I'll be given that benefit when I move to China in 2008.

[adrianlondon]

I don't think there's any real hatred or very strong negativity here; we're just exaggerating to make a point. Aren't we?

Although I'm not at BLCU, and we have a better class of student here at BNU

[roddy]

I don't think there's any real hatred or very strong negativity here; we're just exaggerating to make a point. Aren't we?

Well I think the OP's "I basically hate all my other foreigner USA, Candian, English, other english speaking countries friends" is fairly clear, but nobody else seems to be quite so bitter. Whether that is exaggeration to make a point or genuine is hard to tell when you are dealing with the written language, and / or in a foreign language / culture, which is the case for many people.

To be honest I think anyone who lets themselves get into a situation where they are hating their 'friends' is at least partially to blame for their own plight - you can choose them, after all.