How useful is zhuyin / 'bopomofo'? How to use it?

[Rrina]

Hello. I'm a newbie here and a very new student of Chinese.

Our class has been learning the zhuyin alphabet. By now I know the order of the letters, but I don't yet know how to write them all.

What I don't yet quite understand is how is one supposed to "use" zhuyin while learning. Should I learn to write all new words in this style? Or is it simply a way of learning pronunciation? For those who already are advanced in Mandarin, how useful was it to know zhuyin?

Thanks so much!

[tuxoar]

Just out of curiosity, where are you studying right now? Taiwan?

The only place you will ever use Zhuyin is in Taiwan, and even then only in a few contexts:

1. You are reading children's books made for/in Taiwan

2. You are talking to someone in Taiwan about how to pronounce a character/word

3. Sometimes helpful when using FanTi Dictionaries.

I have been studying in Taiwan for 4 months now and have learned zhuyin just because I am here and it doesn't take much time to learn. That said, I rarely use it and almost never need to write it.

To my eyes, the only reason zhuyin is still used is to be different from the mainland. Another reason is that there are way too many pinyin systems in Taiwan which are all completely different, no one seems to be able to agree on a standard.

I don't mean to make it sound like it is competely useless, to a foreigner it still has a few uses. If you are planning on spending time in Taiwan I would recommend you pick it up.

In contrast, it is essential that you learn the PRC Hanyu pinyin. If you haven't started already, start soon.

EDIT: I realized in my haste I neglected to really answer your more direct questions... here goes..

What I don't yet quite understand is how is one supposed to "use" zhuyin while learning. Should I learn to write all new words in this style? Or is it simply a way of learning pronunciation? For those who already are advanced in Mandarin, how useful was it to know zhuyin?

As far as I can tell, you "use" zhuyin like any other phonetic system, but it's use is much more limited than Hanyu Pinyin. ie, you never see it on road signs or really anywhere else.

Don't bother learning how to write every word in zhuyin, learn to write the character like normal and be sure to keep the pronunciation straight in your head. In the event you need to actually tell someone else (who only understands zhuyin) how to pronounce a word, it would be useful to be able to write it. On the other hand sometimes it is just as easy to write a separate character that has the same pronunciation (maybe different tone) to explain it.

I doubt I am quite to the "advanced" level, but I def not a noob... that's just my 2 cents on the matter.

[Rrina]

Now that's funny! I'm in the US but if I remember correctly, my teacher said she's from... Taiwan.

I guess now I can understand the emphasis on zhuyin. But we get everything in Hanyu pinyin too, so now I won't kill myself trying to learn the zhuyin symbols. The tones are hard enough!

Thanks so much.

[novemberfog]

Like the other poster said, Zhuyin is only used in Taiwan. I would advise you to get a thorough grasp on Hanyu pinyin above all things because it is your foundation for mastering pronunciation. Don't blow off Zhuyin altogether, however. You may find that you need it.

My first Chinese teacher was from Taiwan and she taught us both because many of the students were from Chinese families from Taiwan and their parents did not understand Hanyu Pinyin. We were graded on Hanyu Pinyin, but encouraged to learn Zhuyin. My conversation partner was a Taiwanese as well, and my partner could not (and would not make an effort to either) read Hanyu Pinyin.

I use Hanyu Pinyin for inputing Chinese into my computer, and I use it in my notebooks for pronunciation notes, and I also use it to look up words in modern dictionaries. However, I have to read Zhuyin because of some of my study materials. I am interested in folk tales and Chinese traditions and I found quite a few books on this subject aimed for non-Chinese learners while traveling in Taiwan. The books were published in the 70s and 80s though, before Hanyu Pinyin really took-off in the Chinese teaching community. So the book containes Zhuyin and also the taiwanese form of "pinyin" (which confuses me since I am used Hanyu Pinyin). I really enjoy the textbooks because of the way in which the lessons are structured, and I enjoy the content in the reading selections as well.

So if I were you, I would master pinyin, and then do my best to understand how zhuyin works just in case it was needed in the future. Good luck and have fun.

[atitarev]

I agree that passive (at least) knowledge of Zhuyin Fuhao doesn't hurt - to be able to read it. If you're going to learn a few thousand Chinese characters, you might as well try some more Taiwan specific characters. I also have some (very limited) material in Chinese and Zhuyin Fuhao.

On this forum there were very nice links with comics from Taiwan, it had also audio.

One was with a pdf file and the other in Macromedia flash. The phonetic guide was in Zhuyin Fuhao.

Can someone remind me, please?

Zhuyin - Pinyin conversion table:

http://www.pinyin.info/romanization/hanyu/basic.html

[Rrina]

On this forum there were very nice links with comics from Taiwan, it had also audio.

One was with a pdf file and the other in Macromedia flash. The phonetic guide was in Zhuyin Fuhao.

Can someone remind me, please?

I'd love to see those too...

I think I can see one reason for learning Zhuyin. The pinyin doesn't distinguish between the two 'e' sounds or the two 'u' sounds, as far as I can tell. Is that correct?

[atitarev]

Do you mean:

ㄅㄧㄝ bie and ㄘㄜ ce?

It's all convention and is easier to adapt, like you learn in English that letter C in front of e, i and y is , [k] in most other cases and another reading for "ch".

I'll try to find the links at home, as I have saved the pdf file at least (18 mb).

[atitarev]

Here's one of the sites with comics. I lost the original posts but it should be added to resources, IMHO.

http://edu.ocac.gov.tw/biweekly/animation1/index.htm

The print button brings you to the pdf file - big!

Clicking on stories opens the animated comics, which you can listen to, read along with the English translation. There is combination of buttons which do different things. The phonetic guide is given in Zhuyin but the traditional chracater text can also be converted to pinyin or simplified with the number of tools available.

[atitarev]

A word in zhuyin fuhao used in Taiwanese newspapers.

Is the word ㄍㄧㄥ used in Taiwan? Why is not written as 硬? To convey the dialectal pronunciation? Is it ging or geng?

From Wikipedia:

news.chinatimes.com

www.libertytimes.com.tw

[chrix]

because it's Taiwanese, not Mandarin.

EDIT: sorry, should've realised that you probably wouldn't be able to read zhuyin. According to the zhuyin, it's ging.

Why do you think it's 硬? it's not read anywhere close to ging (a friend says it's read nge)

Edited December 9, 2009 at 06:18 AM by chrix

[chaxiu]

There are other threads about this topic. It as more to do with what materials you have available and personal choice. It is not difficult to learn and for me at least it was helpful to get my brain to think in mandarin sounds instead of 'English' sounds.

Try this:

http://www.mdnkids.com/BoPoMo/

Chaxiu

[semantic nuance]

Is the word ㄍㄧㄥ used in Taiwan? Why is not written as 硬?

There's a thread about ㄍㄧㄥ.

Hope it helps!

[atitarev]

Thanks, semantic nuance.

[Shi Tong]

To the OP:

Advantages of Bopomofo:

Zhuyin Fuhao symbols are based on Chinese characters, and in some cases they are identical. Learning Bopomofo, therefore, gives Mandarin students a head start to reading and writing Chinese.

Another important advantage to Zhuyin Fuhao is its status as an independent phonetic system. Unlike Pinyin or other Romanization systems, Bopomofo symbols cannot be confused with other pronunciations.

The main disadvantage to Romanization is that students often have preconceived ideas about the pronunciation of the Roman alphabet. For example, the Pinyin letter “q” has a “ch” sound, and it can take some effort to make this association. On the other hand, the Zhuyin symbol ㄑ is not associated with any other sound than its Mandarin pronunciation.

[imron]

For example, the Pinyin letter “q” has a “ch” sound, and it can take some effort to make this association.

Yep, all of about 5 minutes

On the other hand, the Zhuyin symbol ㄑ is not associated with any other sound than its Mandarin pronunciation.

Correct, and there's still absolutely nothing to stop the learner from mapping that sound in Mandarin to one from their own language and still ending up with incorrect pronunciation.

Plus, how much effort is required to learn to recognize the characters of bopomofo? Probably more effort than is required to learn that "q" has a "ch" sound, as well as the other few differences between pinyin and the learner's native language.

[atitarev]

Agree, phonetic system has nothing to do with your pronunciation, unless you are a stubborn or inattentive learner and keep reading "q" as /k/ or something like that.

Zhuyin would be more useful as a learning tool if it was used in daily lives more often - writing foreign words, imitating accents, onomatopoeia, giving pronunciation for rare words in books, etc, like they do it in Japan with Hiragana/Katakana (a much more important role, actually). I actually think, if Chinese would use some phonetic aid (teaching to pronounce foreign names, etc.) in the cases described above, Zhuyin would be ideal or a better choice, perhaps with some modification to add more sounds. Of course, people would need to be familiar with it. Zhuyin look more appealing to the eye when combined with Chinese characters than a mixture of Roman letters and Hanzi.

Otherwise, learning this script is a waste of time, what's worse if you use it very seldom, there is a chance that you can misread a word when you need to learn a new character, it happens quite often if you learn a new script and learn wrong pronunciation because you misunderstood a symbol.

Edited February 16, 2010 at 12:32 AM by atitarev

[chrix]

I personally like zhuyin (use it for typing too), but I still process pinyin much faster due to the fact that it's based on the Latin script. Just a matter of processing speed (like that learning Polish was much easier for me than learning Russian)

[atitarev]

I understand you, Chrix but as I said, I know and like to use Hiragana because it is ... used, no pun intended. We already discussed this, I hold a different opinion. It's your personal choice of languages and how serious you are about them.

Thai and Vietnamese are perhaps equally difficult but Thai has a more complicated and inconsistent script, it is actually very hard to learn it, unlike Cyrillic, Greek, Hiragana, Zhuyin, etc. but Vietnamese tones are a bit too hard for me.

Hindi and Urdu are very similar but I am more familiar with Arabic than Devanagari script, so I can find Hindi words via Urdu.

I only blame myself for not learning Thai and Hindi properly and their scripts. I don't have enough time but I don't find these scripts useless and definitely not a waste of time like the case with Zhuyin.

If I am interested in Chinese and Japanese and I use their scripts. Zhuyin is only a learning tool or has very limited applications.

[chrix]

Which issue are you referring to, atitarev, the zhuyin issue, or the processing of scripts issue?

[atitarev]

I agreed with Imron about script vs learning correct pronunciation having little connection and added that Zhuyin has little value since it's not used frequently. Memory works better when something is used frequently, the more advanced you get with Chinese, the less you use Zhuyin and you may forget.

As for processing speed, I agree with you, a foreign script is slower to use. Even for me living abroad but having to type in Russian is a small hassle, since I don't have Russian keyboard or stickers. However, when I have access to a proper Russian keyboard, there is no delay, same would be with other scripts, if you learn them well and have an easy access to their keyboards. Mobile phone users in Taiwan become very good at Zhuyin if they have it on their keyboard.