How useful is zhuyin / 'bopomofo'? How to use it?

[Shi Tong]

Problem is that, in reality, we all just have to learn the characters and pronunciation of all the words. Whatever aid there is, use it, and whatever floats your boat is most important.

I could go into the fact that there are pinyin sounds which need further explaination too, like ê(ㄝ), which is commonly written as e (ㄜ), and a v (ㄩ), which is also commonly written as u, as is ㄨ, but the fact is that no system like this is perfect, just need to do a lot of learning!!!

[Lu]

Yes, learning it is the key. Without learning a system you can't use it correctly (or you can't use it at all).

As you may or may not know, the proper way of writing ü is ü. v is only used when people can't write ü on their computer and can't be bothered at that moment to find a way to write it. I assume ê is something you came up with to distinguish it from e. There is no ê (with accent like that) in pinyin.

As renzhe said, once learned, pinyin is completely unambiguous.

[Shi Tong]

Hello Lu,

Ineed.. tell me though, how do you differenciate between e and ê (ㄜ and ㄝ) if they're both written as e? IMO, this makes a big difference of pronuncaition for certain words, as I'm sure you're aware.

I do know that ü is written as ü in pinyin, and some people use v as an alternative, but again, if most people write this as u, then also this can cause problems.

Either way, I'm more interested in how you tell an ㄜ from an ㄝ without a different character.

PS: this is a pinyin/ zhuyin conversion table, which includes ê for pinyin version of ㄝ.

Zhuyin and Pinyin Comparison Table

Zhuyin Pinyin

ㄅ b

ㄆ p

ㄇ m

ㄈ f

ㄉ d

ㄊ t

ㄋ n

ㄌ l

ㄍ g

ㄎ k

ㄏ h

ㄐ j

ㄑ q

ㄒ x

ㄓ zh

ㄔ ch

ㄕ sh

ㄖ r

ㄗ z

ㄘ c

ㄙ s

ㄚ a

ㄛ o

ㄜ e

ㄝ ê

ㄞ ai

ㄟ ei

ㄠ ao

ㄡ ou

ㄢ an

ㄣ en

ㄤ ang

ㄥ eng

ㄦ er

ㄧ i

ㄨ u

ㄩ u

[roddy]

Ineed.. tell me though, how do you differenciate between e and ê (ㄜ and ㄝ) if they're both written as e?

How do you differentiate between the h in 'thumb' and the 'h' in hotel, and the 'h' in ghost? You just learn a couple of things and get on with it.

I do know that ü is written as ü in pinyin, and some people use v as an alternative, but again, if most people write this as u, then also this can cause problems.

True, just like when you write zhuyin upside down, incorrect use can cause problems.

[renzhe]

Either way, I'm more interested in how you tell an ㄜ from an ㄝ without a different character.

Please give us an example where there is ambiguity about how a pinyin "e" should be pronounced, then we'll discuss. I have a feeling like you're trying to treat each letter separately instead of thinking in terms of finals which belong together.

I'm much more interested in how you can transcribe 用 to ü + eng, like Zhuyin does. If you add the final from 女 and the final from 生, it doesn't sound anything like yong. There is no way on Earth that this phonetic transcription can lead to anything close to the correct pronunciation in this case.

No system is accurate at the individual letter level, and it cannot possibly be, because Chinese is composed of initials and finals, not micro-letters put together like a puzzle. Each final has a certain sound to it which cannot be further decomposed into smaller sounds without losing phonetic accuracy.

[Lu]

I'm more interested in how you tell an ㄜ from an ㄝ without a different character.

Only certain combinations are possible. Qu is always pronounced ㄑㄩ, because there simply is no sound ㄑㄨ. Similarly, chu is always ㄔㄨ, because ㄔㄩ doesn't exist. The same letter, u, is used in both cases, but in both cases you know from the combination that in one case it's ㄩ and in one case ㄨ.

It works the same for i, which sometimes is a full sound, ㄧ in ji or ni, and sometimes an indication that the initial is the whole word, as in zi or chi.

Similarly for e. Ye cannot possibly be ㄧㄜ, because there is no such sound, it's always ㄧㄝ.

I strongly suggest you find someone who can teach you pinyin and drills you well in it. Yes, I know you find it difficult, but you've also managed to learn English spelling, and that is infinitely more complicated. A good teacher and some rigourous practice should go a long way.

I'm much more interested in how you can transcribe yong to ü + eng, like Zhuyin does.

This is one I also never really understood. Taught myself zhuyin and that was fairly easy, until the day I wanted to type an email to a friend named 阿雄 and found myself completely stumped. That one is in my opinion counter-intuitive.

[skylee]

The forums' patience for Shi Tong's questions/issues is impressive.

I strongly suggest you find someone who can teach you pinyin and drills you well in it.

I strongly support this suggestion.

And I think not all systems suit everyone. It doesn't matter if we are talking about romanisation schemes or Chinese input methods. Some people might just find a certain method/scheme unacceptable/unreasonable/illogical. IMO there is no point arguing the shortcomings/merits etc of such things. As long as there are options, one can always choose what he prefers and disregard what he doesn't like. End of the story.

Cangjie is a Chinese input method that millions of people use and prefer. I had found it illogical and uncomprehensible even before I found other alternatives and I refused to learn it (which meant that I could not type Chinese). But the fact that I can't understand it doesn't mean that it does not work or others don't find it useful. I don't really have strong issues about which input methods people should use. I don't argue that some are better than others. I think as long as one find something that works for him then the problem is solved.

Life is too short. Unless we have unlimited time IMHO we should spend time on something more meaningful than arguing if bopomofo or pinyin is better/more logical/reasonable.

Edited March 13, 2010 at 03:56 PM by skylee

[trien27]

like ê(ㄝ), which is commonly written as e (ㄜ), and a v (ㄩ), which is also commonly written as u, as is ㄨ

You are totally wrong:

ㄝ = "eh" or the sound in the middle of the word "bear" or the French word "mer" [ = sea].

or if you want to challenge yourself, I'd suggest,you try saying this word, and figure out the e sounds: "med-uh-BEAR", capitals = stress: This is a transliteration of the Hebrew word meaning "to speak".

Sorry, I'm unable to think of any other English words with the same sound as examples so I had to use words of other foreign languages.

ㄜ = letter sound in the French word "Le" or the schwa sound would be close enough.

ㄩ = It's actually "y+ü", and not just the ü sound: the letter v is just a simpler way of inputting this "yü" sound due to very few words in any Chinese dialect will have a v as in "van" sound. ㄩ IS NOT the same sound as ü in German or Turkish at all, so how can they even make it look like they're the same?!

ㄨ = "oo" as in "food" sound, which is mostly incorrectly "transliterated" as "u". Unless there's a vowel sound after it, then it'll be a w as in "win" sound.

Edited March 13, 2010 at 12:30 AM by trien27

[trien27]

Zhuyin and Pinyin Comparison Table

Zhuyin Pinyin

ㄅ b

ㄆ p

ㄇ m

ㄈ f

ㄉ d

ㄊ t

ㄋ n

ㄌ l

ㄍ g

ㄎ k

ㄏ h

ㄐ j

ㄑ q

ㄒ x

ㄓ zh

ㄔ ch

ㄕ sh

ㄖ r

ㄗ z

ㄘ c

ㄙ s

ㄚ a

ㄛ o

ㄜ e

ㄝ ê

ㄞ ai

ㄟ ei

ㄠ ao

ㄡ ou

ㄢ an

ㄣ en

ㄤ ang

ㄥ eng

ㄦ er

ㄧ i

ㄨ u

ㄩ u

Allow me to make corrections:

ㄐ j(i)

ㄑ q(i)

ㄒ x(i)

ㄓ zh(i)

ㄔ ch(i)

ㄕ sh(i)

ㄖ r(i)

ㄗ z(i)

ㄘ c(i)

ㄙ s(i)

ㄜ ə / uh

ㄝ eh

ㄧ (y)i

ㄨ (w)oo

ㄩ yü

Quiz:

If ㄅ = b, ㄨ = (w)oo, & ㄩ = yü, then how come 匈 or 胸 = xiōng???

Edited March 13, 2010 at 12:54 AM by trien27

[Shi Tong]

The forums' patience for Shi Tong's questions/issues is impressive.

A little unfair, since I did actually say:

Problem is that, in reality, we all just have to learn the characters and pronunciation of all the words. Whatever aid there is, use it, and whatever floats your boat is most important.

I'm not suggesting reopening the debate, I'm suggesting that pinyin, as zhuyin is not perfect.

ㄩㄥ for 用 makes total sense to me, and it's pronounced differently from the pinyin yong4, which would suggest ㄧㄥ, which is a different pronunciation.

But again, I'm not suggesting opening the debate again.

TBH, I'm pretty comfortable with most pinyin nowadays anyway, though I can still occassionally misread it and get confused. I can also type it to a large extent, so why does it matter? I think that there are certain things that are never really going to make logical sense to me, and I should accept that.

trien, thanks for the corrections.. the list came from a bopomofo website, and I can see it wasn't a perfect transcription, but most people do write ㄜ as e and ㄝ as e.

Oh, and I'm entirely aware that you cant make certain sounds in Chinese.

[renzhe]

I'd like to hear your pronunciation of ㄩ, ㄥ and 用, out of sheer curiosity. Despite best intentions, I don't see how it can work, starting with the lip position. Consider the lip position at the beginning of 雨 to that at the beginning of 用. Also, do you feel that ㄥ is pronounced the same way in 成 and 用? Surely not! Have your wife pronounce both, and have a close look at her lip position.

The point is that all phonetic transcriptions are inherently approximations.

[imron]

ㄩㄥ for 用 makes total sense to me, and it's pronounced differently from the pinyin yong4

Why and how? ㄩㄥ and yong are pronounced exactly the same.

which would suggest ㄧㄥ, which is a different pronunciation.

The only way it can suggest this is if you are still not treating pinyin as pinyin, but rather mapping the pronunciation of another language on top of the pinyin words.

[Shi Tong]

renzhe, please read the article posted by Imron.

[renzhe]

I'm aware that both ㄩㄥ and -iong/yong are pronounced exactly the same way, please read the post in this thread where I said exactly the same thing as imron.

My point is that the ㄩㄥ final does not sound like a combination of ㄩ and ㄥ. It is pronounced differently than you might expect if you break it down to individual parts.

[Lu]

and I'm entirely aware that you cant make certain sounds in Chinese.

Then why are you asking me about the difference between e = ㄜ and e = ㄝ? If you are already 'entirely aware' of the answer? I know why I'm still in this thread, but what on earth are you arguing now? I suggest you either learn pinyin properly, or stop arguing points based on misunderstood notions of it.

And 用 is pronounced yong4, which sounds exactly identical to ㄩㄥˋ. The fact that I don't see the logic of ㄩㄥ doesn't change that.

[Shi Tong]

My point is that the ㄩㄥ final does not sound like a combination of ㄩ and ㄥ. It is pronounced differently than you might expect if you break it down to individual parts.

Well.. I disagree, if you pronounce qiong2 (poor), then the sounds at the end ㄩ and ㄥsound exactly the same as yong4.

And 用 is pronounced yong4, which sounds exactly identical to ㄩㄥˋ. The fact that I don't see the logic of ㄩㄥ doesn't change that.

I fail to see what is illogical about 用 being illogical if spelled ㄩㄥˋ? It's exactly the way it's pronounced.

The reason I keep arguing on this thread, is that despite my best efforts to say that I think we should drop the topic, people are still on my back about how zhuyin is somehow illogical or wrong, so if they will argue that ㄩㄥˋ is illogical, I will argue why pinyin is illogical back.

Does that not make sense?

[roddy]

Well, just be the bigger man and let the poor misguided souls have the last word then. History will no doubt prove you right.

[Shi Tong]

Roddy.. I should probably just post a recording of ㄩㄥˋ and break it down.

There's no doubt that in some words sited, like cheng2 (to become), the spelling is ㄔ(ㄨ)ㄥ, and the sound is not the same as the ㄥ in ㄩㄥˋ, but that's what makes zhuyin inperfect, just like pinyin, since you have to stick an ㄨ in front of the ㄥ to make it an "eng" sound. However, eng is not how you pronounce the end of ㄩㄥˋ either, though ㄥ in pinyin is eng.

For instance.. in Zhuyin, ㄧㄥ1 spells "ying" as in "hero", but logically scanning the sounds gives you a "yong" sound, the same with pinyin. However, I still dont see what's illogical about the spelling and pronunciation of ㄩㄥˋ.

I dont really see what the argument is here either. Neither pinyin or zhuyin are perfect. I find zhuyin works better for me, and I understand that I'm not that great at pinyin.. or I can see the holes, but the argument that pinyin is quicker to write on a keyboard is a very useful tool. Not only that, but I understand that a lot of people who are used to a Romanisation system find it easier to use.

Anyone that wants me to pronouce ㄩㄥˋ for them, please vote below.

I dont even know if I can do sound recordings on this computer.. hahaha

EDIT: Attached.. prononciation of ㄩㄥˋ

yong.wma

Edited March 17, 2010 at 10:21 AM by Shi Tong

[Lu]

I fail to see what is illogical about 用 being illogical if spelled ㄩㄥˋ? It's exactly the way it's pronounced.

From what I've learned about zhuyin, ㄩ is pronounced as the end sound of 魚; ㄥ is pronounced as the end sound of 正. yu-eng. yu-eng. I can't make yong out of that.

I know that the rules of zhuyin say that 用 is written ㄩㄥˋ, but your explanation of that rule is not helping me in understanding why. Given that a lot of thought was put into zhuyin when it was invented, there's probably a sound reason for the rule, so I'll just have to ask someone else sometime.

[renzhe]

Thanks.

Now pronounce ㄩ and ㄥ separately, and explain to me why neither ㄩ or ㄥ have anything to do with ㄩㄥ.