General Versus Specific Comparisons

[YuehanHao]

My Chinese textbook recently imparted a "grammatical point" on comparisons as follows:

"Generally speaking, a comparison can be made only between two definite or specific topics."

Example

Correct Sentence: 这个红苹果比那个绿苹果好吃。

Incorrect Sentence: 一个红苹果比一个绿苹果好吃。

Now that is pretty clear, but consider the following sentence:

红苹果比绿苹果好吃。

Is this statement grammatically correct, and, if so, what is its meaning in English? A friend of mine suggested this is a loophole in my book's prohibition on non-definite comparisons (i.e., it could essentially mean "a red apple tastes better than a green apple" or "red apples taste better than green apples"). One hates to doubt a friend, but due to my textbook's "grammatical point" I am not totally convinced that a reader wouldn't still be assuming that two unnamed but specific apples are being compared. What do knowledgeable people think about this?

Also, I know there are many other comparators in Chinese, such as 更，最，一样，etc. Must these devices follow rules similar those described for 比 above?

谢谢，

约翰好

[skylee]

Incorrect Sentence: 一个红苹果比一个绿苹果好吃。

strange. why is it incorrect?

一個富翁比一個乞丐有錢。

一個成年人比一個小孩高大。

一張頭等艙機票比一張經濟艙機票昂貴。

are they incorrect too?

[anonymoose]

"Generally speaking, a comparison can be made only between two definite or specific topics."

I think there are two things to note in this sentence:

1. "Generally speaking...": this phrase implies the possibility of exceptions to the following rule. I think 一个红苹果比一个绿苹果好吃 is one of those exception, just as in English it would be unusual to say "a red apple tastes better than a green apple", but you can usually contrive a scenario in which it would be suitable to say such a sentence.

2. "...between two definite or specific topics.": In the example 红苹果比绿苹果好吃, 红苹果and 绿苹果 are both specific topics, so I don't think it contravenes the 'rule' stated in your book anyway.

Anyway, that's my interpretation.

[adrianlondon]

In English, "a red apple tastes better than a green one" sounds odd; it's better to say "red apples taste better than green ones", which might be what the book was hinting at. However, even that's a bit of a sweeping statement and I'd probably say "I think red apples are tastier than green ones".

Despite having studied one semester of Mandarin here in Beijing, I still think first in English and translate, which slows me down and usually ends up with me scrabbling with word order and grammar in my head as fast as I can, so as not to appear totally stupid and slow.

Hence, I would say "我觉得红颜色的苹果比绿的好吃"

I would probably be understood, but ... is it right? And I don't mean are the red ones really more delicious ;)

[Koneko]

一個富翁比一個乞丐有錢。

一個成年人比一個小孩高大。

一張頭等艙機票比一張經濟艙機票昂貴。

are they incorrect too?

Yes, I think they are wrong. It's a bit odd to say so in Chinese. We are not refering to specific items here, hence it would be better to generalise the comparisons.

It's more natural to say:-

General

富翁比乞丐有錢。

成年人比小孩高大。

頭等艙機票比經濟艙機票昂貴。

Or, Specific

这富翁比那乞丐有錢。

这成年人比那小孩高大。

这頭等艙機票比那經濟艙機票昂貴。

K.

[HashiriKata]

I think there's a confusion between logics and grammar here, which reminds me of the sentence "The green idea sleeps furiously".

Generally speaking, "一个红苹果比一个绿苹果好吃" is fine grammatically but it'd sound odd logically, because the judgement appears to be based purely on the colour of the apple. "红苹果比绿苹果好吃" on the other hand is more acceptable because "red apples" and "green apples" here are more easily to be construed as a type, a variety of apples, and not just an apple that happens to be green or red. We can compare between types and varieties because there are known differences between varieties, but we can't compare 2 things based on their accidental characteristics as criteria for comparison. However, "一个红苹果比一个绿苹果好吃" is perfectly acceptable in the context where "红" may indicate "ready-to-eat" while "绿" may signal "not-quite-ready", and this is in fact a comparison between types.

Similarly, skylee's examples, in spite of 一個/ 一張 in them, are acceptable because they are comparison between types, and not between individuals as they first appear to be:

一個富翁比一個乞丐有錢。

一個成年人比一個小孩高大。

一張頭等艙機票比一張經濟艙機票昂貴。

[skylee]

Yes, I think they are wrong. It's a bit odd to say so in Chinese. We are not refering to specific items here, hence it would be better to generalise the comparisons.

I do not agree. But it is ok.

[Yanne]

I agree that it's not about grammar. Or language, for that matter.

Saying "一个红苹果比一个绿苹果好吃" suggests that the tastiness of red apples versus green apples can be compared by how many there are, hence the inclusion of "一个". For instance, it suggests that you can say "五个红苹果比三个绿苹果好吃", which is not grammatically wrong but doesn't make much sense in any language.

[Koneko]

So it seems like we're having a catch-22 situation here.

It's grammatically correct but it's exceptionally used.

[chenpv]

When a comparison is made, one has to consider not only the comparability of two objects but also if there are any effectors that in particular would dampen the accuracy of the comparison.

Of course if the two objects are two different things, one doesnt have to specify the ultimate reason to explain the difference that he discerns, simply because they are different. Ambiguity works in this circumstance with no problem. But in other way, if the two are of the same type, comparison can only stand when at least an effector is appointed. It can be either numerical like in '两个苹果比一个苹果重。' or non-numerical like in "红苹果比绿苹果好吃。" But the bottom line is the effector that your have chosen IS the effector that effects/ supports your conclusion (as the meaning of the comparison).

Hence in the example, "一个红苹果比一个绿苹果好吃。" Tastiness has nothing to do with number, which, if added, can be superfluous and make your comparison vulnerable.

一個富翁比一個乞丐有錢。

This is a comparison between two types by using ONE single representative of each group. Of course, it can be as well written with general forms like 富翁比乞丐有钱。

[Koneko]

Thanks Chenpv!

Let's put the grammar, nature of the language, sentence smoothness aside.

Which would you normally say, as in habit:

一個富翁比一個乞丐有錢。

or

富翁比乞丐有钱。

I would definitely use the second example.

Again, the emphasis is on habit.

[anonymoose]

chenpv, I like your analysis of the situation.

There is one point that I didn't quite understand. You seem to be saying 一个红苹果比一个绿苹果好吃 is not a very good sentence because the inclusion of 一个 is superfluous. Yet you seem to imply that 一個富翁比一個乞丐有錢 is an acceptable sentence because 一個 refers to a single representative of each group.

As far as I can see, these two sentences are entirely analogous, and you could say the 一個s in both sentences refer to a single representative of each group.

Perhaps I just misunderstood your point, but are you saying

1. 一個富翁比一個乞丐有錢 is a better sentence than 一个红苹果比一个绿苹果好吃?

2. 一個富翁比一個乞丐有錢 and 一个红苹果比一个绿苹果好吃 are both 'vulnerable' sentences?

3. 一個富翁比一個乞丐有錢 and 一个红苹果比一个绿苹果好吃 are both good sentences?

[zhwj]

The difference is that the basis of comparison in 一個富翁比一個乞丐有錢 is intrinsically linked to the things being compared - you could say 一万個乞丐比一個富翁有錢 (if the financial definitions of beggars and rich people work out that way), since the numbers affect the comparison.

You can't really do the same for apples and taste, since the "one" doesn't have anything to do with how we think about comparing tastes in normal situations.

[YuehanHao]

谢谢，大家。Your insights are very helpful to me. I must say I think it will still be a while until I have figured out the nuances of comparisons in Chinese, but I guess that means I just need to learn and practice more Chinese. In my native language, I have grown so comfortable with relying upon instinct, without truly appreciating all of the arbitrary conventions, implied meanings, or philosophical concerns that I still only vaguely grasp (I am thinking of the ideal forms of Plato's Cave or "a white horse is not a horse“). After reflecting more on these posts and comparisons in English, I think the posts here do the best that is possible (i.e., impart a set of good general principles), but a lot of trial and error will probably still be necessary for me to apply comparisons in Chinese in a natural way (as with everything else in that language!).

With that in mind, maybe that "grammatical point" of my book was just a pragmatic device intended to keep me studying purposeful things instead of wasting time thinking about abstract points like this one - anyway, I am grateful for the help...

约翰好！

[chenpv]

Which would you normally say, as in habit.......Again, the emphasis is on habit.

I can't agree more on this. Personally, both expressions work without preferentialilty except that the '一个' version is used a little bit more often in literary Chinese, while the other in spoken Chinese. I guess...?

Perhaps I just misunderstood your point' date=' but are you saying

1. 一個富翁比一個乞丐有錢 is a better sentence than 一个红苹果比一个绿苹果好吃?

2. 一個富翁比一個乞丐有錢 and 一个红苹果比一个绿苹果好吃 are both 'vulnerable' sentences?

3. 一個富翁比一個乞丐有錢 and 一个红苹果比一个绿苹果好吃 are both good sentences?[/quote'] Sorry that I didn't make myself clear. Since I am not a buff on Chinese language, I can not guarantee 100% accuracy of my analysis but just offer bits of my empirical understandings of how and in what way Chinese and English may differ. So the following is just my best guess of what your question really focuses on and I will try my best to explain in broken English:)

As far as I can see, after reading my above post, you have a question on the usage of '一个‘, rather than how to organize a comparison in Chinese.

'一个' plays dual functions in Chinese. One is 'used as a function word before singular nouns when the referent is unspecified' (Merriam-Webster) which in my humble opinion resembles one of the usages of 'a' or 'one' in English (like 'a man'). The usage per se emphasizes more on something 'unspecified' rather than any numerical connotations (if not at all?). And this is the case in '一个富翁' example. Whereas the other meaning is 'the number denoting unity' (Merriam-Webster) as in examples of 'one man, two men, three men etc.' So this usage stresses the numerical connotation and that is the case in '一个绿苹果' example.

Therefore, '一个' in '一個富翁比一個乞丐有錢' suggests an unspecified rich guy which can be seen a representative of a group, while, oppositely, not in the other example.

You may pose further questions on how I decide on the different meanings of '一个' in some analogous sentence pattern like that in Chinese. Well unfortunately I can't help more but only say 'My stomach told me so.':)

I don't know if I make myself clearer this time.

With that in mind, maybe that "grammatical point" of my book was just a pragmatic device intended to keep me studying purposeful things instead of wasting time thinking about abstract points like this one

'有破有立.' Yuehanhao, Rules are made to help, rules are made to be broken. You are on the right track to challenge any grammatical rules. (BTW, your username is Hello Yuehan? I donno, but have this feeling of hailing Hitler every time I see it. Kidding.)

[YuehanHao]

哈哈，Chenpv. Mussolini and I let it pass, but I guess I should respond to your comment. No offense, by the way. But is that honestly the way that the obligatory German salute to Hitler would be translated? Seems a bit casual and cheerful for the original cold and militaristic German, but I admit my ignorance. In any case, for the true inspiration of my nom de plume, please forget fascism and think of one of the most famous songs of the American rock and roll icon Chuck Berry: "Deep down in Louisiana, close to New Orleans..."

约翰好！