Starbucks, The Forbidden City, and so forth

[geraldc]

I grew up in Cambridge, and for years the University refused to allow McDonalds into the town. Eventually they relented, provided the McDonalds was tasteful and didn't stand out too much. As a result Cambridge's city centre McDonalds has a wooden frontage (the traditional red and yellow colour scheme was banned), and the interior features mock Roman columns and a hand painted ceiling depicting the sky and clouds (it's a lot like Caesars Palace in Las Vegas)...

10 years later and people's worst fears weren't realised, McDonalds didn't spread American cultural imperialism through the rest of the town...

Surely Coke is as commercial and American as Starbucks, yet no one wants to ban that, and you can get that throughout the Forbidden City.

Does the English language audio tour of the Forbidden city still have Roger Moore doing the voice over? Admittedly it's kind of strange you can be talked through the Forbidden city by James Bond, before you can relax and enjoy a Starbucks.

I was always puzzled why the largest cup size in Starbucks was called Venti, then I found out it meant 20 in Italian, and referred to the fact it was a 20 oz cup. 20 oz! That's a British pint, what sort of person orders a pint of coffee!!!

[adrianlondon]

Does the English language audio tour of the Forbidden city still have Roger Moore doing the voice over?

Unfortunately not. I went there Nov 2005 and it was a woman's voice, speaking English with a Chinese accept. Unless Roger Moore decided to spend some of his fortune post James Bond on certain surgery easily available in Thailand, I have to assume it's not him.

[Xiao Kui]

That's a British pint, what sort of person orders a pint of coffee!!!

An American - guilty as charged. I can't stand to go to a Chinese cafe and pay 25 RMB for a tiny 6 oz cup of coffee - what a rip-off! If I'm gonna get ripped off I want to at least get my money's worth !

[roddy]

Unfortunately not. I went there Nov 2005 and it was a woman's voice, speaking English with a Chinese accent.

That was a bit of a loss. Listening to the audio guide while waiting for the "Unfortunately, the emperor's plans for world domination were . . ." (raise left eyebrow, raise right eyebrow) "sadly mistaken" part was always fun.

Surely Coke is as commercial and American as Starbucks, yet no one wants to ban that, and you can get that throughout the Forbidden City.

Or Wrigleys chewing gum.

The Summer Palace is pretty bad for souvenir shops and so on - seems like every building they could fit one into has one, plus stalls outside. No Starbucks there though. Yet.

Adding a 2002 photo of the offending coffee emporium. I think now even the signs in the window have gone, although I can't recall for sure.

[Koneko]

Well, Starbucks is just the tip of the iceberg.

McDonald's, KFC, Burger King, Coca Cola, Pepsi, Pizza Hut, General Motors, Ford, Hollywood films, Calvin Klein, Guess? etc...

Just to name a few!

We eat American.

We drink American.

We drive American.

We wear American.

We dream American.

We are Americans!

[skylee]

We eat American.

We drink American.

We drive American.

We wear American.

We dream American.

No.

We drive Japanese cars. We ride on trains made in Korea. We see American films. We speak in English. We learn Chinese. We talk on Nokia. Our furniture is Ikea. We dress ourselves in Zara, a Spanish brand but produced in Portugal, Turkey, etc. We are world Citizens.

[Koneko]

We are world Citizens.

He he... I nearly forgot that.

Yes, I am the citizen of the world.

Somehow, I've lost my own identity.

Why do we still need passports, visas?

National security? Of course, we are just the world citizens with lots of boundaries.

Which just brought us back to where we started?

[johnmck]

Yes, I am the citizen of the world.

Somehow, I've lost my own identity

One's identity is defined by the boundaries one creates in one's own mind.

[yonitabonita]

We eat American.

We drink American.

We drive American.

We wear American.

We dream American.

We are Americans!

Hmm fair enough if that's an accurate description of your lifestyle choices and your aspirations. But don't speak for me. I for one don't eat at any of the fast food outlets you've mentioned, nor wear CK, nor drink coke, nor dream 'American'.

If I eat fast good, I go for frozen dumplings. I am unfashionable and usually choose not to wear big labels. I ride a bike, and fly Cathay Pacific wherever I can. My big dream at this point is to kick ass in the HSK. So how so I fit into your neat description of humanity?

Y

[flameproof]

Starbucks is probably the only quality product you can find inside The Forbidden City. The rest is tacky souvenirs and instant noodles of the cheapest kind.

I find the Starbucks trend very interesting. It's not a foreign place, it's a place for the hip upper Chinese elite. And it teaches a good lesson: you don't have to be cheap to be successful.

I am not sure about the coffee quality, can not complain though, definitely better then the morning coffee in my 4-star hotel.

Anyway, Starbucks is good, still better then KFC....

[Koneko]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/asia-pacific/6274841.stm

Check this out, guys.

[gougou]

Or this if you're in China.

[flameproof]

Starbucks in The Forbidden City was also a topic in this morning BackChat on RTHK3 in Hong Kong (the link is correct, but not sure if it's uploaded yet).

http://www.rthk.org.hk/smi/rthk/radio3/backchat/20070122.smi

http://www.rthk.org.hk/asx/rthk/radio3/backchat/20070122.asx (same, but different stream format)

It was noted that most cultural things in China are poorly managed and/or run down. The Forbidden City certainly does look run down and (thanks to the other vendors) quite tacky.

It was also noted that other countries usually do not allow national monuments to be overly commercialized.

But I do wonder if the "Starbucks" issue is a storm in a teacup. It is very low key (I didn't notice it when I was there in December, I really wanted to sit down somewhere!), and I was told it's also very small (2 tables only).

[Koneko]

This interesting news article from a Malaysian Chinese newspaper, Sin Chew Jit Poh 星洲日报, is about how and why the government of Taiwan is trying to de-Sinicise their National Palace Museum, 国立故宫博物院.

This is quite similar to China trying to get rid off Starbucks at the Palace Museum, 故宫博物院. De-Americanisation vs De-Sinicisation? Do you think it is politically necessary?

I pasted the whole article here in case it is inaccessible in Mainland China.

K.

故宫去中国化

updated:2007-01-28 17:03:16 MYT

陈水扁政府积极推动“去中国化”，修宪或制宪是大动作；机关更名如侨委会、有“中”字头的公民企业换衔，是小动作。但是，处理故宫博物院，最是尴尬。

故宫，不论其指涉清廷的旧皇居，或是国民党运至台湾的前清文物珍藏，都是不容抹煞的历史，也为国际所熟知，因此，其与“中国”千丝万缕、瓜攀藤蔓，怎麽都摆不脱关系。

政治手法遮掩史实

苏贞昌内阁任内无何政绩，治安差、金融糟、民生受苦，只有改名做得冲冲冲，最有“电火石”的况味，前如中正机场改名，现在则决定将故宫条例“去中国化”。

如何去法？苏内阁把组织条例中“宝物来自北平故宫与中央博物院”等文字完全删除，“中国古代”也改为“国内外”。理由是避免中国在未来国际场合要求扣押归还故宫宝物。这是用政治手法遮掩历史事实，却缺乏法律意义，甚至治丝益棼。

从政治上来说，如果都是“一中”，那麽文物珍藏在“自己人”手中，台北、北京各据珍奇、互擅胜场，不管谁是第一、谁收藏最富，都没有关系，也无须计较，反而有文物分流、亲近人民的教化作用。

愈去中国化愈难保存

但是，如果台湾真的搞起法理独立，不止中国矢言要兴兵促统，连故宫文物都可以用“台湾窃据”的理由，要求收回。换言之，愈是“去中国化”，台湾便愈难保存故宫宝藏。

如果以为修改故宫组织条例文字，便可以免除在海外遭到扣押，更属掩耳盗铃的笑话。只要旧组织条例中曾有此记载，北京当局依然可以据此举证其文物来自北京，而要求返还。

删改文字乃是小技末流，重要的是政治上的善意。扁政府一方面积极去中国化，一方面却企图保住中国历史珍藏，背道而驰、宁有行得通的道理？

不如根本把“故宫”两字一起删除，改名“台北”、“台湾”或“福尔摩莎”博物院，还可以切割得更乾净！何以不为？其实是怕激起对岸激烈反感、徒然扩大事端，因此小幅度“偷跑”。

半世纪以多来，台北故宫博物院增加不少收藏，未必来自清故宫，也有前朝国民党的经营，将之归属为台湾的努力，理所当然。

巡回借展可作参考

云冈大佛的佛头、圆明园的兽首流落海外博物馆，得到妥善保护和陈列，此间虽有前人掠夺侵占的史实，终不能抹煞后人保存维护之功。

历史和现实的过与功交缠，只有透过协商解决，绝没有为文明的珍藏再演野蛮战争的道理。不协商、不谈判，却搞小动作要抹乾吃净，有待商榷。

保罗盖蒂是已故石油大亨，生前收藏丰富，在洛杉矶特辟建博物馆展示，与世人共享，传为佳话。最近保罗盖蒂博物馆与意大利政府闹出纠纷，遭罗马当局索还流失的国宝，一时喧腾，最后双方达成协议，用巡回借展的方式圆满解决纷争，可作苏内阁参考。

台北故宫博物院“去中国化”，背离事实，现实上也徒增困扰。何妨参考保罗盖蒂博物馆的做法，与其徒功地饰词据有，何妨推动两岸交流故宫文物、巡回借展，这将是何等的文化大事！当然，这与扁政府的意图，又背道而驰了！ （星洲日报／国际／金山人语·特约∶陈裕如·2007.01.28）

[simonlaing]

I wonder if these web campaigns might be in response to westerner criticizing Chinese for having the Starbucks in forbidden city.

I think westerner criticism of certain signs in the Shanghai airport made a big difference. (Other smaller airports are still have some strange wording or just very little signs.)

After this great period of "it's the economy that's important stupid" concentration of resources, perhaps there is some blowback that symbols are important. Wasn't it last year that there was concern that the Great wall was falling down as farmers expanded and parts weren't protected. Though I am not sure what happenned in the end .

Many hutongs are protected in Beijing as well, this might be related. (though there are large swaths that will likely become tall apartment complexes....

What do think?

Simon:)

[flameproof]

Is the Starbucks still there? I heard it's gone. I was there on June 4th and didn't see it.

But now they have an outlet which is far more Chinese style and really reflects the great culture of that country!

[gato]

Is the Starbucks still there? I heard it's gone. I was there on June 4th and didn't see it.

Maybe they took June 4th off.

[imron]

Is the Starbucks still there? I heard it's gone. I was there on June 4th and didn't see it.

It's quite easy to miss, because it's quite inconspicuous and blends in well with its surroundings, unlike many other stalls/shops. You might not even realise it was starbucks until you went inside. It was still there a couple of months back when I visited.

[Crivens200]

Starbucks in Forbidden City is great - would rather sit in there and read a newspaper than traipse through the bloody thing for the 20th time with yet another vsitor. Wahay!

[adrianlondon]

Well, it's no more. Pity, as I thought it actually added a bit of class next to all the tacky souvenir shops and pot noodle places.

From http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/asia-pacific/6898629.stm :

A Starbucks coffee shop operating on the historic site of Beijing's Forbidden City has closed down after huge protests.

An online campaign arguing that the shop was trampling on Chinese culture had drawn more than 500,000 signatures.

The Starbucks branch was told it could stay open if it sold other brands but has declined.

The Forbidden City was built in 1420 and was home to 24 emperors until the end of imperial rule in 1911.

It attracted nearly nine million visitors last year, is China's top tourist attraction and a Unesco World Heritage site.

Seattle-based Starbucks said the decision was "very congenial" and it respected the site's motives.

Starbucks's vice-president for Greater China Eden Woon said: "There were several choices, one of which was to continue, but it would not carry the Starbucks name any more.

"We decided at the end that it is not our custom worldwide to have stores that have any other name, so therefore we decided the choice would be to leave."

'Solemnity undermined'

Starbucks, which has nearly 200 outlets in China, opened the Forbidden City shop seven years ago and removed its brand sign two years ago to address cultural sensitivities.

But the shop continued to draw protests.

China state TV personality Rui Chenggang led the online campaign, saying the shop's presence "undermined the solemnity of the Forbidden City and trampled on Chinese culture".

The palace is undergoing restoration that includes toning down the commercial aspect. The number of shops has already more than halved.