Thoughts on promotional / commercial posts

[roddy]

I just want to put this out for general discussion / comments, as it (along with many other things) is becoming more of an issue as the site grows and I've had a couple of queries about it lately.

The site's current position on people who want to promote their own site or business is fairly restrictive. The T&C's request that they make contact with me first so I can have a look at what they've got and decide if it's of value or not. Often it's not - there are numerous 'teaching foreign friends glorious Chinese culture' sites out there with the same copied and pasted content, an inactive forum and a bunch of Google ads. I don't feel any need to give these sites any more publicity as they are offering nothing new. I sometimes feel kind of bad about this as a certain amount of effort has gone into them - but little thought. However it's not my job, or the job of the forums, to mentor these people towards usefulness. That said, I'm probably more sympathetic to 'how can I improve my site' posts than 'come visit this great new site' ones.

Sites / services which I judge relevant are generally allowed to post to introduce themselves and announce any significant changes. Unfortunately a lot of providers lose this opportunity by failing to contact me first and jumping right in with multiple look-at-me posts and perhaps a couple of 'I am American student, I very like Dabian Happy Chinese School' efforts. However I sometimes think this isn't the best way to handle it, as if you live in Dabian you may be very happy to learn about said Happy Chinese School, even if they do have a crappy marketing strategy.

Subsequent posting is limited to the highly relevant and factual. A private school in Beijing would be welcome to introduce itself if someone posts looking for a private school in Beijing - but not if they're looking for a private school in Qingdao, or a university in Beijing, etc. Very few people actually do that though, I think partially because they're not keeping a close eye on the forums, and also because they know the discerning consumer advocates on here will be very quick to point out excessive prices, dubious sounding courses and the like.

Beyond that their options are paid advertising or silence. Paid advertising, incidentally, gets you no posting or editorial privileges whatsoever. I do turn away advertisers who say things like 'Well, we'd like to advertise, but there's this post on page 6 of the Universities and Schools Forum which . . .' They have the right to reply, and threaten legal action (so far we've only ever got as far as the threats).

That's how it stands at the moment. What I'm thinking about at the moment is how to deal with a) those who quite possibly provide a decent and useful service but promote it in an ineffective and irritating way, and B) commercial posters who quite possibly have a lot of value to add but aren't interested in doing so unless they get something in return. Thoughts welcome.

[newbie2006]

Why not have a classified section as one of the topics under forums.

The more the better - just like gum tree

[roddy]

Ahem. Doesn't get much use though.

[imron]

I like the way things work at the moment.

If an advertiser tries sneakier methods, warn them, and let them try again using proper methods (i.e. posts with full disclosure, links in signatures etc).

If someone has something useful to contribute to the forums, then they should do so in a useful manner. Taking a more active interest/role in the forums besides just a simple one-off advertising post is going to be much better advertising in the long run anyway.

Put simply, I like to know when advertising is advertising, and I think the current policy gives the content and posts on this forum a greater deal of respect and reliability, knowing that there is an ever-vigilant admin keeping away/exposing underhanded advertising techniques.

I'm also not particularly fond of the idea of advertisers getting editorial privileges. I think so long as the right of reply exists, then this should be fair enough. Readers are for the most part sensible enough to distinguish between valid complaints vs. grudge-bearing customers/clients trying to extract revenge and cause as much damage as possible to a given company, and I think this is especially so if the company in question has a well written response to any accusations.

[simonlaing]

Hi Roddy and Imron,

First, I want reveal identity of myself. I do have a part-time online tutoring business that is breaking even, barely. But I was wondering how many posts Roddy has to deal with. Are there lots every week? If there are not too many perhaps a case by case basis would work well.

I have lived in China for 5 years and have experiences I'd like to share and discuss the crazy cool place called China. I agree with one of the earlier posters that simply putting the website address at the bottom of the email shouldn't mean that it would get deleted. Plus in my case I don't put it there all the time. Now on posts like I am planning on going to China what online materials could help me, perhaps suggesting my site along with others would be good.

Also after getting a few of my posts were deleted, I saw it was not really worth it. Plus of the times that the website was left on the post, no one has signed up for the free trial class. What does that say is a good question.

If it's in the signature or not a big deal I don't think posting a website is such a big deal. I can be reasoned with but Chinese is such a difficult language to learn, if the advertising is unabtrusive I think its ok.

Have fun,

simoN:)

(I won't put the website up, besides its blocked by The gov't because I used Yahoo silly me)

[imron]

If you run a school/website, put a link to it in your signature - this behaviour is encouraged by the current regulations, and (I believe) won't get you blocked posts. Examples that spring to mind are mrtoga and badr. Over time, if you are participating regularly in the forums, people will see your signature and those that are interested will follow the link. This is especially so if your posts are interesting/insightful.

If you think that your website/business could be relevant to a post, then by all means include a link to it - just make sure you clearly disclose your relationship to the website/business, so that people can make an informed decision.

I'm not opposed to advertising, or to people promoting their business/website on the forums, I'm opposed to intrusive/off-topic advertising (i.e. in every thread somehow working the topic around to how people should visit your website), and to advertising that is masquerading as a real post (i.e. someone from the business pretending to be a customer/client and singing the praises of said business/website).

The key is to be relevant, non-intrusive, and open.

[Lu]

a) those who quite possibly provide a decent and useful service but promote it in an ineffective and irritating way

I see your point. Would it help to tell such people that they are welcome to post, but in a different way?

B) commercial posters who quite possibly have a lot of value to add but aren't interested in doing so unless they get something in return.

Please don't give in to such requests, there is already enough censorship out there. If someone says something bad about them, they are welcome to defend themselves, and if their service is any good defending it won't be that hard.

[kudra]

(someone from the business pretending to be a customer/client and singing the praises of said business/website)

the term of art is

sock puppet

[wushijiao]

Just an idea, but, what about allowing a fairly long amount of text (and a website link) in the signature for a small price?

[imron]

Depending on how much text is allowed, this could get annoying/intrusive, especially if the person was making a post in a thread unrelated to their website/business. Then everyone is exposed to lots of irrelevant text. A few lines are ok, but once the signature size gets larger than 4-5 lines, the noise/signal ratio increases - especially if there are a bunch of smaller posts in a given thread.

One thing I really like about these forums, is that signatures and avatars are restricted in size/content, so that most of the screen real-estate is taken up by posts, rather than people trying to do fancy things with their sigs.

[trevelyan]

If a site is covered with Google advertisements and is just looking for traffic I'm happy to have them pay Roddy for the privilege of spamming me.

[roddy]

Very kind of you, sir!

However, this isn't a paid thing - it's about people (who may or may not pay for advertising in another form) using the forums to attempt to attract customers or eyeballs. Actual paid advertising is another issue.

The signature idea, incidentally, I don't like as value for money would then be associated with the number of posts you made, which isn't a guarantee of quality posting.

[wushijiao]

Then everyone is exposed to lots of irrelevant text

Good point. Just wanted Roddy to get rich or die tryin'!

[roddy]

Thanks for all the comments. What's I'm currently discussing with a couple of firms is having designated 'commercial' members, who'd be clearly identified via username / avatar / signature posting on a regular basis in their area of expertise. For example a Chinese school might have one of their teachers post answers to the various 'how do I say / use X' questions. I can't see any problem with this - we get the added value of the answers, school gets a bit more exposure. Quality of posts would be monitored, and quantity would be controlled. Thoughts on that welcome. It's nothing that couldn't have happened previously - I would never have objected to people doing this - but now I'm going to firms saying something along the lines of 'You want to get your name on the forums? Then you need to . . . .' and putting it on a more concrete basis.

[tokyo_girl]

Every time I come back here the site is bigger and more active!

It's been a while since I have been ehre, and am probably not really qualified to comment anymore....

but...

FWIW....

I see beneifts for the readership with this kind of commercial post.

The quality of the info should be good - if not presumably they will not be alowed to continue posting. Furthermore, the fact that it is clearly identified as commercial means that people don't need to have their scepticism antena so fine tuned. It also gives exposure to businesses that are in all probablility legit.

So long as quality of posts is maintained and it's not obtrusive advertising, it sounds win-win to me...

:-)

[roddy]

Stick around and make it biggerer and more activerer

Good to see you still dropping in, thanks for your thoughts.

[tokyo_girl]