Tone Sandhi

[KiraKira]

Does tone sandi affect seperate words beside each other, as well as compound words?

For example:

这首古诗我不理解

Will 首古 undergo a tone change, as well as 理解 because of the repeating 3nd tone?

[gougou]

Did you use the search to look for previous posts? There is a copious amount of discussion of tone sandhi.

[KiraKira]

I did one just now and read about 10 posts which were helpfull, but didn't find a clear comment on tone sandhi affecting compound words only, or nearby words also. Like if the whole sentences should be looked at in entirety (in tones): 1433243 and you just apply the rules to make it 1423243 .. or if the changes only apply to words made of two+ connected hanzi like [1][43][3][243] in which case the two 3rd tones wouldn't change. This may be really simple which may explain why most people didn't need to ask.

Searching the forum mostly just gave me the distinct inpression that most people are also confused, I mean people don't have many problems getting by using the main guidelines but are still overall unsure with some other tone changes.

The whole thing seems kind of ridiculous, Chinese people must not think of the words in like we do, like imagining the pinyin with the tone mark and making changes like a math equation when the sandhi situation applies. I would think they mostly associate the written hanzi with the audial sound and that's it, so there must be one or two big general rules for the sake of spoken harmony you can apply to make the processing more unconsious. Or, maybe I'm just approaching it wrong

[HashiriKata]

Will 首古 undergo a tone change, as well as 理解 because of the repeating 3nd tone?

That's right, just deal with each group independently as you come across it.

so there must be one or two big general rules for the sake of spoken harmony you can apply to make the processing more unconsious.

Yes, competent speakers aren't conscious of the change/ rules when they speak. The change simply occurs physically (to facilitate the normal pace of speaking).

[shibo77]

这首古诗我不理解。

Zhèi shǒu gǔshī wǒ bù líjiě.

(这首Zhèi shǒu)(古诗gǔshī)(我wǒ)(不bù)(理解líjiě).

43313423.

Tone change with (理解)líjiě (23) because there are two consecutive third tones in one word; no change with 首)(古 -shǒu gǔ- (33) because they are in different words.

-Shibo

[HashiriKata]

no change with 首)(古 -shǒu gǔ- (33) because they are in different words.

This is not necessarily the case, shibo77, as it depends on how you say things at the time you say them (? ).

Ok, just say 这首古诗 fairly quickly in one breath and you'll see that 首 would naturally carry the 2nd tone (This is what I hinted at in my previous post by saying "The change simply occurs physically ".)

[KiraKira]

Ah! this is exactly what I wanted to know.

If the sandhi rules apply only to compound words with consecutive tones that would makes things so easy, since virtually every word could be remembered audially as a unit, althogh I'm sure its not quite that easy.

If they change only in set word compounds that makes sense though, for example the rules that preceeding consecutive 3's change tone would be very un-natural since you would have to pre-think and buffer everything else in your sentence since your changing 2+ charactor tones based on the very last one in the series (ie.. if speaking naturally as the words come to you).

So what I gather is that, tone sandhi applies to 'word units' (compounded hanzi words) and there is a natural flow sandhi (virtually the same rules but occurs naturally to facilitate speaking) that HashiriKata mentioned. True?

Thanks.

[Koneko]

Ok, just say 这首古诗 fairly quickly in one breath and you'll see that 首 would naturally carry the 2nd tone (This is what I hinted at in my previous post by saying "The change simply occurs physically ".)

Yes, HashiriKata was right about that.

Now, I've got a quiz for you, KiraKira.

Do you know how to pronounce 岂有此理？

K.

[KiraKira]

I can only guess ..

岂有此理 = qǐyǒucǐlǐ (absurd)

So by the rules ..

qi3 you3 ci3 li3 => qi2 you1 ci2 li3 ahh .. lol.. this feels like a algebra question. They are all 3rd so I made everything but the last tone into 2's .. but then remembered the "consecutive 2's rule" and thus changed the consecutive 2 into a 1 .. that word truly lives up to its definition.

[Koneko]

You're nearly there!

It's actually 2-3-2-3.

You may find this link useful, but it's written in Chinese.

K.

[KiraKira]

Can you explain why?

The link in chinese is appreciated, but if I don't even know basic sandhi ..

読める訳ないね

[HashiriKata]

Try this:

http://www.chinese-forums.com/index.php?/topic/136-chinese-lovers-day52

The 2nd last post (with the heading: How Does It Work? ) is what you need.