what's the best dialect to learn after mandarin?

[wushijiao]

I know....Dutch isn't Scandanavian. It was a typo or something. The point is that when the host people already speak a language that you know fluently, it will be hard to force them to speak to you at an unnaturally low level in their mother tongue (something that can be strangely draining).

I suppose I should go hang out with the old folks at the park to learn Shanghaihua!

[1%homeless]

By the way,the common sense tells us that Taiwan people speak bad Mandarin compare to people from mainland of China,this will never going to be a topic.If you refuse to admit this i will be questioned why i had to spend time answering.

Hahaha. This is funny. A girl told me that I should learn Taiwanese Mandarin instead of Beijing Mandarin because they speak the "uneducated" version of Mandarin. Of course she is Taiwanese...

Now who should I believe? Someone must be speaking bad Madarin.

[ala]

Of course it's nice if, for example, you can speak some Shanghainese when you're living in Shanghai, but still, it's a dialect, not the official language. There's no radio station in Shanghainese, no books, no schooling, etc. Knowing some Mandarin is necessary, knowing the local dialect is extra.

No, there are plenty of language books on Shanghainese, with CD/cassettes etc. All universities in Shanghai offer Shanghainese courses as well. There's even Shanghainese competency exams. Well it is a little more than a local dialect, because if you can't understand people around you, it doesn't matter if these same people are able to speak Mandarin when they aren't speaking it. This will no doubt affect your experience of Shanghai. It's not a problem for business, travel, but to live there for extended periods without knowing it kind of makes you feel like an eternal waidiren. You will probably stick with your clique of Mandarin-speaking friends and that's kind of a shame.

I personally know quite a few Westerners who can speak better Shanghainese than they can Mandarin. And they've been living in Shanghai for about ten years or so.

I suppose I should go hang out with the old folks at the park to learn Shanghaihua!

You should first take a course or skim through some intro book. Old folks are harder to learn from since Old Shanghainese has richer sounds and more sophisticated grammar.

I think it's always a good idea at least to be able to understand the population of where one is living. Picking up Shanghainese is really easy as tones are much simpler, there are no diphthongs, and the bulk of vocabulary is shared with Mandarin or read before in books (Mandarin literature from the first half of the 20th century contain huge amounts of Shanghainese vocabulary). It is an extra that will certainly increase the quality of life in Shanghai, and for me, I cannot possibly perceive that to be an "extra."

[sm_sung]

Picking up Shanghainese is really easy as tones are much simpler,

Just curious, how many tones are there in Shanghainese and what are they like?

[shibo77]

5 in "Shanghainese"?

I would say Cantonese as the dialect to learn. But as for myself, I would like to learn Hakka or a dialect of Min. Although I would have very little motivation, because I would rather spend the time learning a new language!

-Shibo

[Quest]

Although I would have very little motivation, because I would rather spend the time learning a new language!

But it's a lot easier to learn another dialect than a new language!

[pazu]

But I think it's easier to learn 3 languages (swedish, danish and norwegian) than dialects. ;P

In a strict sense, dialects and languages are indistinguishable.

[Lu]

I think the distinction between dialects and languages is mostly political: if the people that speaks it are seen as a separate people, then it's a language (Danish and Norwegian or Dutch and Frisian), if not, then it's a dialect (Mandarin, Cantonese and Shanghainese).

[ala]

Just curious, how many tones are there in Shanghainese and what are they like?

Shanghainese has 5 CITATION tones (from traditional Chinese linguistics), but 4 of those are dependent on the initial consonants (whether voiced or voiceless) and vowel length (rusheng 一六七八十 are all short). Only 1 tone can create semantic variation from tonal variation alone. Hence there is only the contrast between the 4 "regular" citation tones and a "falling" citation tone. You can say there's only 2 tonemes (regular and falling) in Shanghainese. Thus, for Shanghainese, citation tones are rather irrelevant. Even the falling tone is limited to only one type of consonant and vowel length (that is, voiceless and long). What makes citation tones even less relevant is the added tone sandhi that is exhibited for EVERY polysyllabic word. The contrast between regular and falling tonemes vanishes in a polysyllabic sandhi phrase (usually a word) for all subsequent syllables. The initial syllable type (voiceless/voiced, and vowel length) determines the sandhi pattern, and subsequent syllables follow that pattern. There are generally 2 sandhi patterns (H-L-L-L-L... and L-H-L-L-L...), and the precision of the sandhi pitches are quite poor, most Shanghainese can only distinguish a relative scale of High and Low.

This makes tones almost a non-issue in Shanghainese. The critical concern in learning Shanghainese is knowing the word boundaries (where one word ends and the next one begins). And that's not a trivial concern, since aspect particles, etc all belong in the same sandhi phrase as the verb or adjective (they are perceived as conjugated). Your entire notion of Chinese as character-based language gets tipped over. 电子计算机 is perceived as two words from sandhi patterns: 电子 and 计算机, whereas Chengyu such as 瞎七搭八 is one word. 亨邦浪 (total) is one word. 心理状态 is two words: 心理 and 状态. 一天世界 is one word. All familiar Chengyu are perceived as one polysyllabic word. 蚀本 is two words (蚀 is the verb, and 本 is the direct object). 日本 is one word. If you didn't know, and pronounced 蚀本 and 日本 similarly (as both terms involve the same consonants and vowels, and actually have the same citation tones too), your listener would be very confused. Shanghainese using Chinese characters without spacing is an incredible chore to read. This is also what makes Shanghainese much much easier to Romanize (for purposes of a viable script) than Mandarin or any other Chinese dialect.

I posted this before, but for convenience here it is again:

钱乃荣 《上海方言发展史》:

实际上上海话如今的5个调本质上只有一降一平升两个纯属调形性质的音位对立，平升的4个调的差异都是声母和韵尾的辅音造成的。

第44页

语音随着词汇语法词双音节连调成为主流以后，上海话在吴语中最快进化到“延伸式”连调，后字都失去了独立的声调而弱化粘着，重又向屈折语变化。前字有声调音位的作用，除此以外，只有一高一低或一低一高，上海话语流中的语音词读音已像日语的读法。目前，上海话语的语流中，相对稳定的音位有两类，一类是声母，一类是前字声调，这两类为首的音位对上海话语音正起着重要的稳定作用。值得注意的是，在青年中，有的常用词读成前字都是44，最后一字为低升调的读法，如：睏觉kuəɲ44 kɔ13，一点点ʔiɪʔ4 ti44 ti13，做勿来tsu44 vɐʔ4 lE13，规规矩矩kuE44 kuE44 ʨy44 ʨy13，这种读法有缓慢发展趋势，这是上海话向重音化语言转变的前兆。

第74-75页

[Jive Turkey]

By the way,the common sense tells us that Taiwan people speak bad Mandarin compare to people from mainland of China,this will never going to be a topic.

Rubbish like this can't be left unchallenged. Common sense? Perhaps to a mainlander who has never actually been to Taiwan and who thinks that every Taiwanese speaks Mandarin like 50something year old Chen Shuibian.

I'll remind you that the KMT had just about everybody in Taiwan speaking passable Mandarin while folks of your ilk were still parading any intellectual who might help form decent education policies through the streets with a placard on his or her neck. And that was light treatment.

If you had actually visited Taiwan-oops, I guess you've not had a chance to do that-you would have noticed that up in Taipei, people speak pretty damn standard Mandarin: clear tones and correct initials and finals. No need to add the -er; even mainland schools no longer consider that to be "standard" Putonghua. Even in southern Taiwan, people under the age of about 35 or 40 can speak quite standard Chinese. I think we can forgive the folks of Chen Shuibian's generation for not being able to speak Mandarin the way some snooty Beijinger would like them to speak it. It is, after all, their second language. There are still millions of mainlanders who still can't speak Mandarin half as well as the average Taiwanese sixty year old.

You assert that Taiwanese people speak "bad Mandarin" compared to mainlanders. What a load of rubbish. Consider for a moment that Putonghua is the mother tongue of only about 30% of those who speak it fluently. Even if using your snobbish standard for what constitutes "biaozhun" Putonghua, I guarantee that the average 30 year old Taiwanese speaks Putonghua better than the average 30 year old mainlander who's unfortunate enough to belong to the 70% of society who don't speak Putonghua as their first language.

I'd love it if suddenly Cantonese, Minnanhua or Wu suddenly became the official language of China. That sure would turn the tables on the stuck up northerners if they had to deal with the hardship of learning a second language just to get a basic education. I'd love to see the look on their faces when snickered at for speaking sloppy Cantonese or Shanghaihua. I'd love to see how they reacted when told that they are somehow less Chinese because they can't speak a southerner's language as well as the southerner can. That's pretty much the same attitude I see when some mainlanders openly bitch about the standard of Putonghua in Hong Kong when they visit.

With attitudes like ever00t's being so prevalent, is it any wonder why the Taiwanese aren't so keen on being swallowed up by the mainland? I'm a fluent Putonghua speaker living in Hong Kong. I'm quite lazy about studying Cantonese, just like I was lazy about studying Minnanhua when I was living in Taiwan. I may take it for granted at times, but I find it rather gracious of Hong Kong people who are willing to speak to me in Putonghua, even if they are weak in it. I sure can't communicate well in their language. However, reading arrogant nonsense from the likes of ever00t motivates me to try.

[pazu]

Ever00t's statement serves as an observation, not a viewpoint indeed.

This is good to have a chance to see how a mainlander think about Taiwanese.

It seems to me that a Londoner attacks American of their "bad" English.

Funny!

[Jive Turkey]

It seems to me that a Londoner attacks American of their "bad" English.

The (huge) difference is that when the English, Scots, Irish, Welsh, Canadians, Americans, Australians or Kiwis take the piss out of each other's English, 99% of the time it is done tongue in cheek. Only the most stuck up Englishman would insist that the English language is his and that his people set the standard for it.

It seems that at least once a week, I hear comments from one Chinese (usually a northerner, but sometimes a non-native speaker of Putonghua who thinks it makes him look good) comment on how a fluent and perfectly understandable speaker of Putonghua speaks "bubiaozhun" Putonghua. Even if Putonghua were the mother tongue of the more than one billion people who speak it, it would still be impossible to insist on one rigid standard for the language. When you have so many people speaking a language over such a large geographical area, there will be differences. It is impossible to successfully control language in the way Beijing tries to do. This doesn't just lead to encroachment upon other languages like Cantonese, Wu, etc. Even if Putonghua were the only language in China, it would still be impossible for everyone to speak "biaozhun" Putonghua.

The difference between Putonghua and English is that even within one English speaking country, hardly anyone would try to seriously argue that that country has or should have an absolutely rigid standard for its English, or at least as rigid as what Beijing tries to impose (on a bunch of non-native speakers of a language, I should add). Why doesn't the government try to control language? Why don't we try to promote a "standard" language? I suggest that this is because since the establishment of the US, and for even longer in Britain, politicians have generally understand that language is something that is always changing and that to try to control it is to stifle it. Thus, the US and the UK (and I believe Australia) have NO OFFICIAL LANGUAGE designated in their laws. That's right. None. I wouldn't have it any other way.

Generally, when I point out the differences between my language and that of an Aussie or a Brit, I do it out of curiosity or jest. I think other native English speakers are pretty much the same, though some dialects are looked down upon. When a northerner says that a non-native speaker's Putonghua is not standard, he's not joking about it. He's generally saying this because he some how thinks it is realistic to expect that everyone will speak the same way he does, which is just plain arrogant.

[wushijiao]

Jive-

In defemce of everoot, I think that type of comment isn't really arogance, it's just the way mainlanders are taught to think. The country needed a standard language for commerce and military affairs if nothing else, and thus putonghua. Even Northerners such as Shanxi and Henaners need to learn "standard" putonghua by fixing their tones and the like.

I'm not Chinese, but I would have assumed, never have ben to Taiwan, that they wouldn't speak putonghua as well as northerners. But I suppose I'm mistaken.

I might wonder if the real question is whether Chinese people could ever accept the idea of various putonghuas all being equally standard at the same time. This, I think, would require a sociolinguistic shift that I'm sure most mainlanders wouldn't accept because it would certianly challenge other ideas of authority and power. Who knows.

You got to sass 'em! (Homer)

[pazu]

Putonghua is based on the Beijing dialect, but it doesn't mean that it's the Beijing dialect. If you have learned the language when you were small (as in Taiwan), then there's no way to say the other one is "uglier".

What the mainlanders think about the HK and TW accents?

Just reminded me a funny news that the China government intervened the final result of a singing contest in mainland China, because a few winners sang in the accent of HOng Kong and Taiwan, that they thought were cool, people thought it cool and gave them the prize, China govt thought it would be another kind of cultural evils imported from HK/TW, so they intervend.

[pazu]

A news article dated 2004-MAY-19

**中国当局不允许外国电影在今年暑假期间进入中国电影院

上周中国广播电视总局发出通知说，为了保护青少年的精神和身心发展。要求在中国广

播电视节目中杜绝任何宣传西方意识形态的内容，也不淮电视台节目主持人模仿港台同

行的服饰和用语。

[39degN]

这太可笑叻！是真的吗？

[ala]

官话 (Official's language, Court Mandarin) prior to the mid-1800's was of the dialect spoken in and around Nanjing (Jianghuai, 江淮话). 官话 from the Ming until the last century of the Qing was not Northern Mandarin nor Beijinghua. This northern ignorance has got to go.

"Thus, while the founding of the Míng dynasty may indeed have resulted in the emergence of a new standard, the shift of capital to Peking seventy-odd years later had no effect at all on the phonology of the new koine. And two and a quarter centuries after that the founding of a new dynasty, the Qīng, by an entirely different ruling group, was equally ineffectual in modifying the basic system. It was only in the mid-1800’s, 430 years after the original departure of the political center from the Jiang-Huai area, that the shift of phonological base to the speech type of northern capital was completed. " Coblin, S. Reflections on the Study of Post-medieval Chinese Historical Phonology. Dialect Variations in Chinese. p. 23-50, 2002. She was citing Endo Mitsuaki's 1984 paper as well as comments centuries earlier by Francisco Varo.

[Quest]

we have to wait for all those stubborn old cakes to die.

[ala]

but then we'll be stubborn old cakes.

[Quest]

well we will be the less stubborn and more delicious old cakes. a huge difference.