what's the best dialect to learn after mandarin?

[pazu]

[ala]

上海服务窗口方言先行 外地游客遭遇语言障碍

东方网-解放日报  时间：2003年9月30日11:21

    改革开放的上海，实现无障碍交流是必然选择。而公众服务窗口说普通话，无疑是让人识读这座城市的胸襟及其文明的“序言”。

　　然而，上海方言的“先行权”，却令许多外地游客和“新上海人”对这座城市产生了距离。他们向本报反映：上了公交车，售票员用上海话报站，一路心情紧张，生怕坐过了站；抱病来沪求医，医生护士不时“蹦”出上海话，让人不知所措；拨个电话，办个证件，听到的都是上海话，有点不知所云。

　　明天，蓄势已久的国庆黄金周就要启动，上海又将迎来大批四面八方的客人。他们是否还会遭遇语言障碍？为此，本报记者和实习生日前对部分公众服务窗口进行暗访。

　　公交车：提心吊胆怕坐过站

　　坐上626路公交车，售票员一路都用上海话报站。记者试探性地用普通话问了一声：“××医院到了吗？”她只是摇摇头。不过到站的时候，售票员倒是特地用普通话提示了记者。而在57路无人售票车上，记者的“待遇”要差点。因为站牌上没有上海动物园站，记者中途问司机：“到上海动物园在哪一站下？”得到的回应是一句硬邦邦的上海话：“××桥。”记者只听懂了一个“桥”字，售票员手往后一指，用上海话说：“后面牌子有，自己看。”记者只得去看车厢后面的行车路线图，庆幸的是，上面只有“程家桥”站是以“桥”字结尾的，不然还真搞不清楚了。

　　接下来，记者又乘坐了其他几路没有安装报站器的公交车，如617路、630路，916路等，售票员也是一路上说着上海话。一位来上海工作不久的乘客向记者抱怨，他每天上班都要乘坐916路，刚来的时候一点都听不懂售票员在说什么，又不好意思老是问，无奈之下，当公交车停靠站点时，他就瞪大眼睛盯着路边的站牌仔细瞧，提心吊胆生怕坐过站。此外，快到站点时，售票员常常会问：“有人下去吗？没人，开过啦！”问题是，听不懂的人又怎么回答呢？往往还不知道怎么回事，车已经开过去了。

　　即使安装了普通话报站器，乘客在到站下车方面问题不大，但是像“上车请买票”和“哪位师傅帮我传一传”的工作用语，恐怕还是让不懂上海话的人一头雾水。

　　服务电话：“老上海”都听不懂

　　记者拨打上海公用电话投诉热线，电话那头传来一句语速很快的上海话：“××公话投诉电话。”记者从外地来上海没多久，听不明白。只好请一位“老上海”记者帮忙再打过去，对方仍然用语速很快的上海话说：“××公话。”她也听不清楚，逐字询问，最后才明白这是“迅捷公话”的投诉电话。

　　记者又拨打了市内其他一些公众服务单位的电话，大多数接听员开口第一句都是上海话。如向农工商出租汽车公司总机询问投诉部门电话号码，那头是上海话：“农工商，请讲。”向豫园总机咨询团体订票，听到的还是上海话：“豫园，请讲。”向新世界旅行社咨询旅游路线，听到的仍是一句礼貌的上海话：“新世界，请讲。”抱着最后的希望，记者拨打了吴淞口长途汽车客运服务公司的订票电话，没想到接听员张口还是：“侬好，请讲。”

　　办证窗口：入耳都是上海话

　　9月16日上午，记者来到浦东新区医疗保险事务中心，里面一片热闹。问讯处和医保卡发放处等窗口前围满了人，记者仔细一听，飘进耳朵的都是上海话。记者在每个窗口进行了观察，发现能主动并且不管服务对象是否用普通话，都能坚持使用普通话的只有9号和13号窗口。其他窗口一开口都是清一色的上海话，如果材料投错了窗口，一句“去某某窗口”的上海话便是回答了你。材料投了进去，你如果不说话，那么问你情况的也是上海话。只有在服务对象开口说了普通话的情况下，这些窗口工作人员才会改说普通话。

　　记者随后又去了浦东南路上的社保卡服务点，几位正在办理社保卡的市民告诉记者，这里的工作人员基本上也是开口就说上海话。

　　医院：用上海话分析病情

　　记者先来到位于广东路上的一家医院。预检导医台前，没等记者开口，导医人员就主动用普通话问：“要看哪一科？”接过预检票，记者径直上了三楼。在等待门诊就医时，负责叫号的护士接过记者的《就医记录册》，用上海话叮嘱说：“要到楼下挂号再敲个章。”记者“嗯”了一声表示不明白，她耐心地又说了一遍，仍然是一口上海话。记者回到楼下补挂号，对方开口即上海话，记者用普通话应答后，对方仍未改口。令记者没想到的是，年轻的门诊医生开口第一句“你哪里不舒服？”也是上海话，不过，记者一说普通话，接下来医生也一直使用普通话。根据医生建议，记者来到B超检查室候诊，不一会儿，走出一位手拿检验单的护士，对着门外一群病人，劈里啪啦说了一连串的上海话，原来这张检验单上没有病人的名字。记者似懂非懂，走上前一看，果然是门诊医生开给记者的那张检验单。几分钟后，候诊走廊上的叫号扩音器响了，里面传来了记者的名字，两遍都是用上海话念的。记者再拿着检查报告去给门诊医生看，大概是一种习惯吧，医生一开口又用上海话分析起了病情。最后在取药窗口，工作人员说的还是上海话。

　　出门路过导医台，发现台上赫然摆放着“请讲普通话”的牌子。

　　接着，记者又来到山东路上一家医院。该医院的挂号、收费窗口都使用了普通话语音提示系统，给外地来看病的人提供了不少方便。门诊医生是位中年上海人，记者坐定后故意不说话，她开口第一句说的却是普通话。不过，记者在药房拿药时，还是听到工作人员用上海话提醒说：“外用”。此外，还有部分药需在门诊处拿，护士在讲解如何使用时，同样说的是上海话。

　　大学食堂：只点认识的菜

　　中午时分，大学食堂里饭菜飘香，人头攒动。新来的大学生都在窗口前探头张望，一位阿姨用上海话招呼说：“来，后头来！”一位女学生使劲儿往窗里看，拿不定主意。阿姨有点按捺不住了：“侬吃啥么斯？”这位女生终于开口了，她指着离窗口较远处的一大盘黄中带白的菜，怯生生地用普通话问道：“那个是什么菜？”阿姨依然用上海话答道：“韭芽炒肉丝。”显然，这位女生没有听懂，于是她又问了一遍：“啊？”阿姨有些不耐烦了，改用生硬的普通话复述了一遍。

　　这是大学食堂里经常出现的一幕。已经大学毕业的小毛是江苏人，他对刚进大学去食堂打饭的情景记忆犹新：“隔着玻璃窗，远处有些菜看不清，经常会碰到阿姨用上海话来回答。比如平常很少吃的茭白，就算阿姨说几遍还是听不懂，又不敢多问，只好打其他的菜。”小毛的话道出了不少刚到上海的外地大学生的心声。刚来上海，人生地不熟，由于听不懂上海方言，有些菜自己家乡又没见过，不少人就只好依靠“就近原则”，点距离窗口最近的菜。

　　银行：普通话得到了推广

　　记者先走进位于九江路上的招商银行外滩支行，刚刚在填单处环视了一下,耳边就响起了一句标准的普通话：“小姐，您在找什么，有什么需要吗？”原来是一位银行的工作人员。接下来记者咨询了一些业务上的问题，她都面带微笑，耐心详细地用普通话作了回答。接下来在同一条路上的建设银行第五支行，记者同样感受到了优质的窗口服务态度，咨询人员同样以普通话详尽回答了记者的所有问题。

　　记者感言

　　不久前，上海市政府法制办、市教委、市语言文字工作委员会推出了《上海市实施〈国家通用语言文字法〉的规定（草案）》，草案明确：商业、邮电、文化、铁路、交通、民航、旅游、银行、保险、医院等行业人员在从事服务工作时应使用普通话。

　　让上海变得更亲切一些，希望公众服务窗口带头，从第一句话开始，请讲普通话！

　　本报记者黄海华 罗艳 毛锦伟 本报实习生肖岚 吕欢

[skylee]

Re ala's post above. I think people speaking in their own dialect is very natural. But I never felt any inconvenience with people speaking Shanghainese in Shanghai (actually never met any IIRC).

I wonder how the non-Cantonese speaking people feel in places like Guangzhou and HK.

[Ian_Lee]

I am really surprised in the fact that many foreigners know and speak fluent Cantonese.

Two weeks ago when I was queuing in Heathrow, a young blonde standing in front of me suddenly turned her head backward to lecture me on why I didn't speak in Cantonese to my kids.

When I got off my flight in Hong Kong, I heard the CX pilot teasing with the flight attendants in Cantonese.

Both spoke in flawless Cantonese.

[Guest Yau]

Both spoke in flawless Cantonese.

I met dozens of westerners in hongkong but none of them can really

speaks flawless cantonese, always with thick and heavy accent.

Interestingly, while some mainland pop stars imitate hongkong and taiwan

accent, a few hong kong stars (notably Cheng Sau Meng, 鄭秀文) once

tried to imitate this 'Guailo' (westerner) accent too.

Accent apparently processes some information about your background. What

she tried to do is to pretend to be well-educated (proficiency in

english is no different from an british speaking excellent french),

fashionable though she never graduated from a university.

Ironically, my china studies teacher, who was born in beijing, can

understand cantonese but never speak of it. We encourage her to do it ,

but she never, and never answered the question 'why don't you try to

speak it?', only with an embarassing smile appeared on her face.

The open secret should be the accent again. While cantonese is widely

spoken by non-native who lives in shenzhen and Guanzhou, they just

resist to speak it in hong kong.

Some hongkongais arrogantly degrade the 'mainland' accent and link up

the image of squatting, littering, spitting with the one who speak this

accent. They believe his hair should be in a great chao and full of

scurfs, and he also takes a leather shoes with a pair of silk stockings.

The word 'Mainland' is actually coined as an adjective in Hong Kong

Cantonese, which means 'bumpkin'. But the problem, however, never exists

in other cantonese speaking regions.

I've heard that the similar attitude can also be found in Shanghai. Some

of my elder friends complained that when he tried to speak shanghaiese ,

the natives immediately switched to mandarin, impatiently asked him to

stop stop and stop as they felt uncomfortable with shanghaiese in an impure accent. I've never confronted the scenerio , but it seems

that the native shanghaieses i met enjoyed speaking english to

'outsiders' now, though the sound like 'yeah', 'yup' annoyed me quite a

bit.

[Disenchant]

The word 'Mainland' is actually coined as an adjective in Hong Kong Cantonese, which means 'bumpkin'. But the problem, however, never exists in other cantonese speaking regions.

Oh, they'll lose the primadonna-ness soon enough. Without the government bending over backwards for them, Hong Kong would have been on an accelerated path to obsolescence. Quite frankly, I don't think they deserve it.

[Ian_Lee]

Yau:

Just some comments. "Flawlessness" has nothing to do with accent but rather grammar and vocabulary. Dr. Henry Kissinger speaks flawless English but with strong accent.

A lot of Indians from the sub-continent also speaks flawless English but with strong accent too.

By the way, it is more common to write "gweilo" instead of "guailo" and "Hongkonger" or "Hongkongese" instead of "hongkongais".

[Ian_Lee]

Disenchant:

With the Beijing-installed impotent government in Hong Kong, Hong Kong will definitely advance towards obsolescence as you said.

That is the sorrow of Hong Kong.

[ala]

I've heard that the similar attitude can also be found in Shanghai. Some of my elder friends complained that when he tried to speak shanghaiese , the natives immediately switched to mandarin, impatiently asked him to stop stop and stop as they felt uncomfortable with shanghaiese in an impure accent. I've never confronted the scenerio , but it seems that the native shanghaieses i met enjoyed speaking english to 'outsiders' now, though the sound like 'yeah', 'yup' annoyed me quite a bit.

Not exactly. First Shanghainese ISN'T the recognized prestige dialect of the Wu area, Shanghainese is seen as the creole form of Wu. I can converse freely with someone from Ningbo in Shanghainese, and he can reply in Ningbohua. One summer I went Yangmei picking in Ningbo, and spoke Shanghainese 90% of the time there and didn't feel too awkward. But sometimes it's not the accent that is problematic, but the comprehension (from significant variations in vocabulary). And when that happens, putonghua immediately takes over. It's easy for Wu speakers to learn Shanghainese, and they always do (as most Shanghainese residents' ancestors did), and the accent is usually ignored. If you can actually SPEAK Shanghainese (the correct vocabulary, expressions), then you will be accepted as speaking Shanghainese, regardless of your accent. Shanghai has a larger population than HK, Macau, Shenzhen and Guangzhou combined, so it's not really a "select group" of speakers, more like the majority. It's a good 50% of Northern Wu speakers and not the prestige dialect (which is usually seen as Suzhouhua and sometimes Hangzhouhua).

Basically, if someone came to me and started going 我呢 (Old Shanghainese) instead of 阿拉 (Ningbohua, New Shanghainese), I'm going to feel quite awkward listening. It's like someone saying "thou" for informal "you" to you in conversation. It's not about "impure accent." I don't mind accent, but I do mind incorrect usages and nonsensical vocabulary.

[Guest Yau]

I'm not quite sure if it's a problem of accent or expression, but the suggestion that outsiders are not really welcomed to speak shanghaiese seems true to a certain extent. Outsiders here, i mean, are the non-Wu dialect speaker anyway.

While locals feel awkward about incorrect usage of shanghaiese, does it also mean that they feel annoyed and encroached with it? If a westerner speak a strange shanghaiese, will they be treated differently?

I doubt there should be a pride lying on the past or whatever protectionism behind the phenonomenon. However, this impression is unproved as i've never visited Shanghai, but the complaints on this is just often heard from other mainlanders. Probably it's what the communist says 'People's Internal Conflict'.

Shanghai has a larger population than HK, Macau, Shenzhen and Guangzhou combined, so it's not really a "select group" of speakers, more like the majority. It's a good 50% of Northern Wu speakers and not the prestige dialect (which is usually seen as Suzhouhua and sometimes Hangzhouhua).

Not exactly, the population of Shanghai is only 13m something, while the total registered population of Guangzhou, Shenzhen, HK & Macao is around 25m. Dongguan (around 1.5m population) should actually be included.

[Quest]

guangzhou, excluding the floating population, has about 10mils after merging with neighboring towns, and HK has 7mils. Shanghai has about 20mils. For comparison, Beijing has 14mils.

[Guest Yau]

i just grabbed the information about the breakdown of population in some cantonese speaking areas mentioned.

Population:

HK 7m

Guangzhou 10m

Shenzhen 7m (by 2000, estimated to be 10m today)

Macao 0.5m

-----------------------

24.5m - 27.5m

===============

I'm quite stunned by the vast population in these few cities. Is that too centralized ?

[ala]

While locals feel awkward about incorrect usage of shanghaiese, does it also mean that they feel annoyed and encroached with it? If a westerner speak a strange shanghaiese, will they be treated differently?

The problem isn't being offended by it, but being UNCOMFORTABLE and unpractical. If a westerner spoke poor Chinese, and the both of us can speak English well, then it is natural to go into English. Likewise, if both of us can speak excellent Mandarin, why bother with Yangjingbang Shanghainese? If you are trying to learn, then that is a different issue, and you need to make that clear in the conversation.

No most locals are not annoyed with people trying to sincerely learn Shanghainese (today very few such people exist, btw). Most locals however are annoyed with people who learn four or five horribly mispronounced words or phrases and use them all over the place. To the locals, this is condescending as we can all speak Mandarin and there's no need to do this (unless you are trying to learn). Like "ala" for instance (lots of people somehow believe "ala" means first person I/me, which it doesn't). To hear "ala" [followed by long Mandarin sentence] is confusing and annoying.

But the complaints on this is just often heard from other mainlanders.

There are many complaints. The Shanghainese all know them well, and it's very frustrating as most are clearly out of context, double standard, or blatantly false.

Not exactly, the population of Shanghai is only 13m something

No, it's 20 million. However, registered urban population is 14 million (of which 99% speak urban Shanghainese). My question though, do the towns around Guangzhou speak the same variant of Cantonese as Guangzhou? Because Guangzhou urban population in 1999 is only 4 million. Registered Shanghai population has always been roughly 14 million for the past 10 years, so I assumed Guangzhou registered urban population to be about the same. Out of Shenzhen's 10 million, do you know how many are native Cantonese speakers? My point was that Shanghainese is a very dominant Northern Wu dialect due to its numbers and its relative coherence, and less to do with specific prestige (which Shanghainese to be honest never had). In the Cantonese speaking area, how dominant is Guangzhouhua? how dominant excluding Taishan? How much does this have to do with size of core speakers? or is it mostly because of history and politics, thus prestige?

[Quest]

My question though, do the towns around Guangzhou speak the same variant of Cantonese as Guangzhou? Because Guangzhou urban population in 1999 is only 4 million.

close but not exactly the same variant. When I was young, my mom told me Guangzhou had 6million people, but if your data shows 4million, then my mom could be wrong. I believe that only that 4-5 million people speak real guangzhouhua, but the number can increase.

Registered Shanghai population has always been roughly 14 million for the past 10 years, so I assumed Guangzhou registered urban population to be about the same.

same, the population of major cities were stabilized for a long time, now the trend is towards mega cities, which I don't really appreciate.

Out of Shenzhen's 10 million, do you know how many are native Cantonese speakers?

not many... plus I think Hakka was Shenzhen and HK's original language.

How much does this have to do with size of core speakers? or is it mostly because of history and politics, thus prestige?

I think the prestige of guangzhouhua is based on wealth and politics, before from Guangzhou, now from Hongkong.

[Ian_Lee]

Quest:

Even though the other towns in the Pearl River Delta speak variants of Cantonese, isn't there a tendancy for them to acquire the more accurate Cantonese if possible?

My mom used to live in an outside town of Guangzhou but after she moved to Guangzhou, she acquired pure Cantonese.

Even in the overseas Chinese community, my friends from Zhongshan or Taishan would try their best to converse in the accurate Cantonese with me. Even old folks do so. I think there is a stigma mentality existing among them if they speak non-accurate Cantonese to an authentic Cantonese speaker.

For Cantonese spoken among Guangzhou/HK/Macau. there is only minor difference in accent and vocabulary used which does not pose any difficulty in dialog at all.

[Quest]

I think because all the major cities (old cities) in Guangdong speak Guangzhouhua, when country folks come into contact with the city people they don't want to speak like a "乡下佬"， so they try their best to learn accurate guangzhouhua.

In the u.s., people from guangdong towns and villages, even people from Fujian would try to learn and speak guangzhouhua, but real cantonese speaking people are also influenced by them. most notably by Taishanhua, you would notice a lot of people here would use the "waaaaaaaaaaaaa" or "mo" endings, which are not part of guangzhouhua endings. My mom always complains about my aunt acquiring these Taishan accents.

[woodcutter]

In the west, if you say you study Chinese, people will ask "Oh, which one, Mandarin or Cantonese?" so often that it becomes annoying. The question is usually whether to learn Putonghua or Cantonese, so I think the discussion conducted in this thread, though interesting, is a bit odd. When there are some great movies in Hakka it might be worth discussing.

[mun]

hi everyone im new here.

I would say learn cantonese. but then if you want to learn the writing system for cantonese then you would have to learn traditional writing.. but i heard that they are slowly changing to simplified characters.

if u want, u could prob. learn caozhou as well.

[skylee]

but then if you want to learn the writing system for cantonese then you would have to learn traditional writing.. but i heard that they are slowly changing to simplified characters.

The script (traditional vs simplified) does not matter. In HK, we use traditional characters and speak in Cantonese. In Guangzhou, they use simplified characters and speak in Cantonese. There is no obvious trend of changing of the script in HK.

[mun]

in canto peng yum:

dan hai ne, yu gwoh yan yiu seh jung man, gom keui dei hei heung gong, keui dei hoh nung yiu yung traditional jung man aa.