HELP: Advice needed for an IUP-level program - other possibilities?

[amandagmu]

Well, here's the deal. I applied to Cornell's Falcon program and IUP-Beijing. Unfortunately, Cornell interviewed me and told me that my Chinese language fluency was too high for their program. My rejection from Cornell came with the suggestion to apply to both ICLP and IUP which they feel will better suit my needs. I applied to IUP at the same time as Cornell. I do not want to go to ICLP because my doctoral research will use PRC materials in the 1950s-1970s (i.e. not all traditional Chinese characters) and with a focus on sports, so being in Beijing for the Olympics is important so I can interview people. Within a few days of the Cornell interview, I received an e-mail from IUP (which I also applied to) telling me I am only an "alternate" i.e. on the waiting list. I am so incredibly frustrated right now. Can someone please suggest another program for me? I NEED to be able to read newspapers and historical primary sources by the end of next year or I will have difficulty advancing in my doctoral program. This is a serious issue... and I'm not quite sure what do at this point.

~Amanda

[Ding Yiyi]

CET has a program for anyone (absolute beginners to high advanced) learners in Beijing, that could help.

http://www.cetacademicprograms.com

[muirm]

What # are you on the IUP waiting list? If you are high-up, you could still be pretty confident you would eventually be offered a spot in the program (but you just might have to wait a couple more months).

In case you are curious, I attended both the Falcon and IUP summer sessions. Also, what about Princeton in Beijing? You could study there for the summer, then apply again to IUP when the summer sessions finishes.

[venture160]

If your Chinese level is high enough, CET Beijing can be fairly flexible and study what you want.

Also, you could look at CET Harbin, you could select the research track. While you wouldn't be in Beijing, I think you could still do substantial interviews or spend break time there.

If you email any of these programs even if the deadlines have passed they may be sympathetic to your situation.

Other high level programs ACC China and Duke in China. Not familiar with them but I guess they are high-level as well.

[amandagmu]

I'm #8 on the list. Any idea what kind of chance I'll have of making it in? Do you know if the wait list lasts until the session starts and/or if spots open up once the session begins? I applied for the academic year.

I don't know about Princeton in Beijing... I'll check it out. CET: does the research track include reading historical sources or does it focus more on business and contemporary? It seems really expensive for me to be taking chances. I know the IUP program is not only highly reputable but also it specifically addresses my needs, which is why I was willing to get a loan/shell out money for that. I'm not as willing to do that for another program.

Thanks for all the help everyone!

Amanda

[gato]

I NEED to be able to read newspapers and historical primary sources by the end of next year

"Historical" is usually taken to mean classical Chinese, but you wrote that your research would involve materials from the 1950-70s, in which case you would only need modern Chinese with a hearty portion of CCP jargon. For modern Chinese, I bet you could improve substantially even if you just mainly study on your own, with regular meetings with a tutor to improve your speaking and writing skills.

See wushijiao's comments for what he does to improve reading skills:

http://www.chinese-forums.com/showthread.php?p=99421#post99421

[amandagmu]

Hi gato,

Post-1956 materials are generally in simplified Chinese, yes. However, in order to pass my reading exam and qualifying exams for my program, I need to read fantizi as well (lucky me). Another issue, besides fantizi, is the changing use of words/terms/characters and phrases/expressios for which I might need some help since they are often historically based and not at all obvious in some cases (e.g. what did people say before they said someone was "feudal" or "revolutionary"?).

Others--I just did some research on CET-Harbin. I'm going to do some searching on the forums about this program, but if you or anyone you know has done this program (the research track) could you put me in contact with them somehow? PM me for e-mail address. I am very interested but the cost of this program is outrageous... taking out that kind of loan would require some major convincing.

~Amanda

[gato]

Post-1956 materials are generally in simplified Chinese, yes. However, in order to pass my reading exam and qualifying exams for my program, I need to read fantizi as well (lucky me).

You probably already know this, but simplified vs. traditional characters is a different issue from classical (文言) vs. modern (白话) Chinese. Fanti and Jianti are very similar. Most people who know either simplified and traditional characters can pick up the other form on the go just by reading and practicing, with only a little bit of study (say, an hour or so with a comparison chart).

Another issue, besides fantizi, is the changing use of words/terms/characters and phrases/expressios for which I might need some help since they are often historically based and not at all obvious in some cases (e.g. what did people say before they said someone was "feudal" or "revolutionary"?).

A teacher can be helpful for things you can't readily find in books, but I don't quite understand your example. Are you sure the Chinese had words for "封建“ and ”革命" before those words were coined? I can't think the words in English for "feudal"/"revolutionary" before people used "feudal"/"revolutionary".

I don't want to discourage you from taking the class route. Just trying to understand how it would be different from self study, aside from the extra discipline and the camaraderie of fellow students. You might be able to get the same thing by going to a regular program at BNU or HIT.

[venture160]

With regards to the research at CET, you can research ANYTHING you want. CET will match you up with a professor from the area who is an expert in the field you have chosen and most likely will be someone who can find sources for you and interesting people to interview. Also, as gato pointed out, they can help fill you in on some aspects that would be impossible to figure out if you weren't Chinese.

Since you would be in the research track, 50% of your class time would be spent doing your self guided research and then I think there is the option to take 2 elective classes.

Yea its expensive. but isn't it the same price as IUP?

[gato]

You might also consider taking regular classes as a non-degree student at a school like Beida or Renda. It'll be cheaper and you'll probably learn just as much if not more than a specifically language program.

See http://www.chinese-forums.com/showthread.php?p=91806&highlight=fudan#post91806

p.s. Official enrolling in regular classes may require a certain minimum HSK score, but it's possible to sit in as an auditor. If you are at a level where you can read a newspaper and can watch a movie without subtitles, then taking regular academic classes may help you more than just languages classes alone. Maybe enroll officially as a language student at BNU and audit some classes at Beida/Renda.

[venture160]

enrolling at Renda does not require an HSK score, I enrolled in graduate classes and they didn't seem to care about anything besides a check

[muirm]

Hmm, #8 doesn't seem like a sure bet (I think there are 50 students total in the program?). You could ask the IUP director at Berkeley what she thinks, but I would guess she would also say you should look at other options. Sorry if I got your hopes up

[amandagmu]

No worries. I'll figure it out. I'm perpetually screwed as being relegated to "Team B" since I don't go to Harvard, Yale, Berkeley, etc for a PhD program. I'm starting to get used to it, although I'm frustrated by the lack of encouragement (and in some cases I would venture to say discouragement) that I am receiving from various programs right now, not to mention:

"Yea its expensive. but isn't it the same price as IUP?"

Well, IUP is $13,000 for a full year (2 semesters), whereas CET is the same price for one semester. IUP has the name and reputation for my field, while I've never heard much about CET. Either way I'll have to take loans out, loans that will take forever to re-pay as a historian.

I worry about self-study in a field like history precisely because of the terms. And I do think I would need an expert in Chinese history in China to actually sit with me or let me take a class with him or her where I could learn the language of history. As for the specific terms I mentioned, they were just examples. But certainly the terms have and will continue to change and, for that matter, cannot always be easily translated. That's part of my concern: correct translation of a highly charged word that has changed in meaning. A better example might be nongmin. How would you translate this word? Who is a nongmin? How has the meaning of this word changed in China in the 20th century?

Anyways, I am looking into the CET-Harbin program. The blogs are helpful. Thanks for letting me know about them!

~Amanda

[derekws]

Amanda-

Don't give up on IUP just yet. I've been offered an interview, but there's a good chance I'll either fail that or be unable to afford the program. I have to imagine there are others in my situation. Hopefully they number enough that you'll be able to attend.

But more importantly, even if IUP doesn't work out, you have other options. Whether it's through CET or direct enrollment at a Chinese university, *someone* will be wiling to satisfy your requirements. China's a very big country, and the 2007-08 school year isn't for months yet. For now, I'd follow up all the connections you have in America and China, and see if you can't turn something up. Don't be too shy to ask your professors for help and advice. Worst comes to worse, you can enroll in a language program and pay a grad student on the side for help with historical vocabulary.

Best,

Derek

[venture160]

I feel you on the elite school thing. If you go to a ivy league school for study you have tons of oppurtunities, but if you don't, its impossible to get them.

Example, when yale kids study abroad everything is covered by the school including beer and travel. Its essentially free.

[Jamoldo]

Amanda, could you check your Private Messages?

[doumeizhen]

Well, I think there are also other ways, other than school...

IUP is really good at rigorous training and teaching you how to use all the proper words together (though improper is so much more fun!). It focuses on all areas of learning, reading, writing, speaking, so your overall levels will see improvement.

I recently ran into an old teacher the other day who is teaching privately now. You get the same kind of attention, and while not as intense and focused on rote memorization, it has the benefit of you being able to talk about your own material, which in the end is very useful.

Plus, its cheaper. I did the math.

So, at IUP you have 4 quarters of 8 weeks, and everyday you have "two hours" of class (this is their little system of calculation, ask me if you really want to know). So 4 quarters x 8 weeks x 5 days equals160. So, 160 hours of 1 on 1 classtime (though its usually more time because you have classmates, if you were only taking 1 on 1 classes, which are the advanced classes, then it would be a flat 160 hours). So, a private teacher will cost you about 100 RMB per hour for a good, really educated one: 160X100=16,000RMB, divided by 8 for the conversion makes 2,000 American buckaroos. When I did this math I wanted to cry....

But anyways, I think while IUP is a nice thing on a resume, and plus its very, very good training. However, it's not the only option. The mot important thing is really how bad you want to learn and how much you are willing to put into it emotionally.

[Jamoldo]

Problem with private teaching is that you need to be very disciplined to do it. Ie make sure you just don't randomly cancel on the teacher and what not, which I know I would do. Then I know I would get into a negative cycle and not have class for days. In a program though I would go to class since it would be something tangible and fixed, something that I could not just cancel on my own... But that's just me.

Plus I've heard some not so good things about IUP from some current students. I was very surprised.

[gato]

Plus I've heard some not so good things about IUP from some current students. I was very surprised.

Can you tell us?

[imron]

In a program though I would go to class since it would be something tangible and fixed,

There are plenty of private lessons available through a program, with fixed timetables and the like.