I dont understand tones at all

[dynaemu]

I need help in the mandarin tones apartment.. I never hear them, songs, movie, when people speak, anything.. its very weird... maybe I just dont know theyre there? Im very confused on the tones.. i just never hear them and it makes me feel odd when i try to speak chinese to someone.. anyone have any help for me? >_<

Thanks

[mirgcire]

Hmm ... I think I have the same problem as you. Just to be sure, let me ask one question: do your friends complain when you sing? If so, we likely suffer from the same affliction: "tone deafness". After seeing your post I googled this and found the following link "http://www.npr.org/programs/atc/features/2002/jan/tonedeaf/020116.tonedeaf.html".

I am not sure how tone deaf I am, but I am rarely able to determine the tone of a word correctly. To say it more precisely, I am correct only about 50-60% of the time. Sometimes I wonder if I should just give up, but usually chinese people understand what I am saying.

[dynaemu]

People dont complain when I sing, they like it..

Some do say im off-tune though..

[Kong Junrui]

Well how long have you been learning Chinese? Of course, it's not gonna come to you really quickly, and I too would get confused with tones early in my learning, but I'm in my third year of studying this language and can much better identify tones in speech, though I know what you mean about the tones seeming like they're not there... In regular language anyway. But as far as I can tell, they're there but they come so natural that they're just kind of blended in with everything else, kind of like how in English, you don't properly enunciate every single sound in a word in regular speech. Sometimes words tend to be merged together but people still understand.

Or maybe it isn't like that.

[imron]

Go to this page and download the files for the 4 different tones of ma (don't worry about the one that says BPMF spelling for now). Listen to each one 20-30 times then move on to the next one and see if you can tell the difference.

Being tone deaf has little to do with it. We use tones in English all the time, just in a different way from the Chinese. Everytime you ask a question you typically will be changing the tone of your sentence.

Compare for example the difference in pronunciation between the following sentences (especially note the way you end the sentence):

He doesn't like football.

He doesn't like football?

For the second one, your intonation should rise towards the end, and by changing the tone, you are changing slightly the meaning of what you are saying i.e. you change the sentence from a statement to a question, or perhaps even an indication of surprise.

With Chinese tones, it's basically the same principle, except instead of working on a sentence level, it works at a word level (or perhaps more correctly, a syllable level), and the difference in meaning between the different tones is far greater than just changing from a statement to a question.

If you're just beginning to learn Chinese, it is well worth spending the time to get your head around the tones. You don't need to get them 100%, but you do need to be able to mostly differentiate them both when you hear them and when you say them. If you don't get them right from the beginning, then it will be close to impossible to fix them up later on.

[<<恒心>>]

Sounds like you need to do some dictation (听写) practice so that you can begin to build sound/meaning associations, that will force you to become aware of the tones. If you take a recording of something and try to write out what you hear in characters, you'll immediately be forced to choose which tone/character combo to represent what you heard (or what you think you heard).

Since only one specific combination can be correct, and since the context will only go so far in helping you to guess at which specific combinations is correct, you'll inevitably (and quickly) be forced to make distinctions based on what you hear. With enough practice of this sort, I'd be surprised if your awareness and accuracy in distinguishing tones didn't improve rapidly. Give it a try!

[mirgcire]

Does anyone have experience with software that can record your voice and provide visual feed back on tone changes? I think it is possible to develop this type of software: it needs to take a whole sentence and represent the tone changes in time and provide a play back so you can see where/when the tone is incorrect.

One place that I have difficulty is saying 2 fourth tones followed by a first tone. For some reason I just can't get it right ... (yet!). So this type of SW would be useful for overcoming this challenge.

[necroflux]

I give the same advice to everyone I encounter who is in the beginning stage of learning Chinese. Do not begin learning until you can recognize the tones at least 80-90% of the time. If you start learning words without the tones then you will develop a (delusional) habit of thinking that the tones are unnecessary - and ask anyone on this forum who have made that mistake, ditching that habit is a bitch.

So step 1, take a deep breath, and realize it's not that hard - you just need the right tools.

I present to you the right tool. Play this quiz over and over and over until you can ace it or close on a regular basis. It shouldn't take long. You might go crazy in the process, but this will be good practice for the insanity that lies ahead. Just kidding it's a blast.

As for actually speaking the tones properly, (especially in regards to sequences), I don't think you need to be in a rush there. As long as you can recognize the tones when you hear them, the speaking ability will come - because you ought to be able to recognize the tone of your own voice after you speak. That actually takes a bit of skill in and of itself but it comes with practice, as does everything. But indeed you will want to be checking yourself consistently as you speak, as to whether or not the tones are correct. This is best done in the beginning stages with the help of a native speaker, find/hire one at all costs.

I have found that with a good amount of discipline I have to think much less about the tones after two years of study, so by putting that pressure on yourself at the beginning it certainly pays off.

Regarding tone deafness, I don't think the concept is related to tones as they are used in the Chinese language. As far as I understand tone deafness, it relates to the perception of two or more individual tones and whether or not they "match". When using tones in language, you only need to be able to perceive relative change in pitch. If you can start singing at one note, and hear your voice go up or down in pitch, then you have all of the tools necessary to speak and understand Chinese. For proof just look at the Chinese people - if tone deafness does indeed make speaking Chinese impossible, why is it that 1.5 billion people all have no problem speaking?

[mirgcire]

Necroflex,

I think your advice is good, and the majority of beginners would do well to follow it, but I am not a beginner.

It may be hard for you to comprehend but some people are actually less skilled than you when it comes to hearing ability. Your point about the Chinese population is interesting. First of all, your estimation of the population is off by about 200 million. And second, I think is is unlikely that you are an expert on the percentage of Chinese that suffer from speech disorders. I also seriously doubt you have any back ground in the area of tone deafness, speech therapy, or teaching Chinese - but then, neither do I

I have been studying Chinese for over two years now and I am not a casual student. I study everyday and I work hard on listening, practicing, reading, writing, etc. I have a reasonably high vocabulary and I keep up with my class in terms of the visual language. But I have profound difficulties hearing tones - both in my own voice and in others.

I have used the pinyin practice web site and can score okay, but not consistently. I still have a hard time getting a score of over 80%. Also, I listen to chinesepod a lot and when Jenny introduces new words I always try to guess the tones and often repeat several times to be sure. However, I can only get about 60% of those correct. And no one speaks mandarin more clearly than Jenny.

The method I use to express tones is by paying attention to which part of my body is resonating: 1st = mouth, 2nd = head, 3rd = chest, 4th = throat. It works well enough to get by. But this method doesn't seem to be much help when I try to use some combinations of tones.

I feel pretty silly trying to make a solid case for how deaf I am, but this is the second time this week that some has dismissed my difficulties as simply not paying enough attention. I am going to follow up next week with a friend of mine who is a speech therapist to see if you can provide me with any insights.

I am sure my condition is not common, and I hope that dynaemu and others can make good use of your practical suggestions.

Now about that software that provides feedback on tones ..... ?

Has anyone out there tried such a thing?

[imron]

@mirgcire - I tend to support Necroflux's point of view, and hold the same opinions about learning tones, but at the same time am always willing to keep an open mind. I agree that sometimes it's difficult to comprehend others having difficulty with something that comes relatively easy to oneself, so I'm sorry if perhaps I came across as dismissive in my previous post.

However, regarding the points I made in that post, when you are speaking or listening to English can you distinguish between questions and statements based on their tone?

For example I've attached a file of myself saying "you can't hear tones" both as a question and as a statement. If you are listening to this can pick which is which? I ask because for me, this was the base I used when I started learning tones and how to differentiate them i.e. I started by analysing the way I processed tones in English and by paying attention to that I then adapted that process to Chinese.

Anyway, such a process worked quite effectively for me, so I'd be interested in hearing your thoughts (or prior experiences) in using such a technique.

Regarding software for tone feedback, this thread makes mention of a tool called Speech Analyzer which looks to offer feedback you're looking for. I've not used it myself, so I can't vouch for its effectiveness.

englishtones.mp3

[mirgcire]

Imron,

I have a friend who started learning chinese at the same time as me. He figured out how to hear and reproduce tones in about 1 hour. He suggested "question intonation" as a way to reproduce the second tone, and that really helped. It allowed me to hear and reproduce it better. That was two years ago. I am always looking for new ideas so if you have anymore let me know.

I just recently discovered that by feeling the vibrations in my throat I could have more control over the two tones that give me the most trouble. More specifically, yesterday I realised that if I limit the vibration to my thoat I have a better approximation to 4th tone, but if I let it resonate in my chest it comes out as 3rd tone. I think I have made some improvements, but I have yet to get confirmation from a native speaker.

Assuming this works, I will have to go back and reeducate my autonomic response system (so to speak) to associate the sound and physical vibration to words of the language. This already what I was doing - but I have to be more precise about the 3/4 tones. I think this is possible. The key is that I can not rely on my ears alone, I have to use a secondary strategy.

I will also check out the SIL software ... thanks!

[necroflux]

Mirgcire I certainly don't intend to marginalize the difficulty of getting a grasp of the Chinese tones, or the fact that it comes easier for some than others. And make no mistake I still struggle, for me the 2nd and 3rd tones can be hard to distinguish.

Do you hear the tonal differences in the English sentence imron put up? Great idea BTW Imron. I think English has every bit as much tonal variation as Chinese, although it's not used throughout the entire sentence.

[imron]

@mirgcire - I think concentrating on your vocal chords (i.e. the vibrations in your throat) is the key here, and perhaps part of your difficulty previously has been due to your association of the different tones with the different parts of you that were resonating.

If you can hear and pronounce the difference between the statement "you can't hear tones" and the question "you can't hear tones?", then it's not too hard to use that as a base and expand that to tones of Chinese.

The first step is to narrow the changing tone down to just one word - in the sentence I gave, obviously it's the word "tones". So keep practising until you can isolate that one word but still pronounce it either as a statement (this will result in a mid/low flat tone), or as a question (this will result in a rising tone). This rising tone is a good approximation of the second tone in Chinese and these two sounds will also give you a good approximation of your tonal range (with your "statement" being close to the bottom of your range, and the end of the "question" being close to the top of your range). The pitch of the different tones are relative to each other and so by getting a good feel for this rising tone you can use that feeling to understand how to say the other tones correctly.

The tone to try next is the first tone. Looking at any tone chart, you will see that the pitch of the first tone should be the same as the ending pitch of the second tone. So, pay attention to how your vocal chords are at the end of the rising tone, and practice making a constant sound at that same pitch. At first you may need to practice this by just prolonging the sound when you reach the peak of your rising tone, but then you should keep practicing until you can then say a word at that pitch without first needing to get a feel for it by practicing your rising tone. This becomes your first tone.

Once you've got this sound, then you can move to the fourth tone. The fourth tone needs to start in the same place as the end of the first tone. So practice by saying a nice long first tone, but then at the end, drop the pitch down to slightly lower than when you were saying "tone" as a statement. Keep practising this for a while, starting with a nice long first tone and then dropping the pitch at the end so you get used to starting the tone at a high pitch. Once you've got a good grasp of that, then try to isolate just the part at the end without doing a long first tone at the beginning. This will be your fourth tone.

Finally you can move onto the third tone. This one should start at about the same pitch as when you were pronouncing "tone" as a statement, dip down a little bit and then rise.

It's really then just a matter of practicing this over and over again, making sure that the relative starting and ending pitches of the different tones match up. It's also worth noting, that when you're practicing this, you don't need to practice with a Chinese word, it's perfectly ok to practice with an English word because once you've got the hang of it you can apply it to any sound at all.

This is pretty much the way I got my head around the tones when I started learning. The key is to pay attention to how your vocal chords make a given pitch and make sure that the starting/ending pitches of the tones are all correct relative to each other. Once you practice it enough then it starts to become automatic and you will find it much easier to recognise tones when other people are speaking them.

[rose~]

I suppose a point of hope is that you do have the ability to use tones in speaking and listening to English, because English does have tones as well as Chinese as described above, so the key is finding a way to activate that ability with regards to Chinese.

I wonder if you can read music or play a musical instrument? My idea is that it would be helpful to begin learning an instrument where the musician determines the exact pitch of the note produced such as a fretless string instrument, or singing lessons. That way you would be able to have fun at the same time as activating and improving your listening abilities. It would mean training your ear, which is something musicians do, so in a way a good music teacher might be one of the best people to hone this ability. Learning an instrument means hours of focus on the sound one is producing, which I think would be of benefit to you. Although some people have "perfect pitch", others (like me) have had to train hard at things such as singing back melodies, adding harmonies, notating music in an exam etc., it's not always something we're born with. I think a really good music teacher (maybe a Chinese-speaking one) would be someone experienced in this area who might be able to help you through music.

I hope you won't interpret my suggestion as underestimating the difficulty of being tone deaf.

Edit: I don't know whether I explained why I think it would be useful well enough. What I mean is that for example, if you are singing in a choir or playing in an ensemble, you must hear the pitch that others are creating and by interpreting that, produce your own pitch accordingly. Or even playing alone, a music teacher is someone whose very job is to help someone towards training their ear and being able to hear notes. Some of the scary ones might have you in tears but in the end it's worth it!

[mirgcire]

It is true that there are tones in English, and I usually don't have much trouble knowing when someone is asking me a question. I have had very little experience with music. However, participation in choir was not optional for us parochial school kids. I remember being singled out as hopelessly out of key by the choir instructor and told to just sing softly.

My friend Mark (the one who learned tones in 1 hour) suggested that it might be a developmental condition - rather than physical. In China children will exercise the part of the brain that distinguishs tones very early in life, where as many of us westerners did not get that type of stimulus. It is well known that the ability of the brain to distinguish between sounds diminishes considerably after about 18 months. For example, if you were not exposed to distinct "r" and "l" sounds of English before 18 months, you will be unlikely to be able to accuratedly distinguish between them later in life.

My wife has perfect pitch. I am sure she would shoot me (or herself) if I started to practice singing on a regular basis.

[dynaemu]

Funny, I ace that tone test that necroflux posted each time o_O maybe i do hear em?

[kudra]

For an example of the 4th tone in English, think of giving an command, say to a dog, "Sit."

"Stay." "No". As long as you are firmly telling the dog to do that, it will come out 4th tone. If you are wimpy and "ask" the dog to sit, it won't come out 4th tone, more probably 2nd tone, and the dog will probably not obey either.

I usually describe the 1st tone as a "sung" syllable. Normally when you sing, the pitch does not change over the syllable. (Unless you are singing a glissando, or country/western)

So, 1st tone, sung, 2nd tone, question, 4th tone -- command. 3rd tone is the other one. Maybe a highly skeptical "Wha-at?"

my 2 cents.

[flameproof]

Does anyone have experience with software that can record your voice and provide visual feed back on tone changes?

Forget it! I heard that even native Beijingers often fail with those. It's highly unreliable and no help at all.

But I have the same problem. I just do 1st a little higher, 3rd a little longer, 4th a little lower.

I build up vocab first and do tones "later". I have to add, I am very often in China and have little problems to be understood.

[leosmith]

I have used the pinyin practice web site and can score okay, but not consistently.

When I first started out, I used pinyin practice a lot. This is probably a dumb question, but are you taking into account tone change rules? I ask this because it's the reason I kept messing up.

[mirgcire]

are you taking into account tone change rules?

Do you mean rule that one or more third tones preceding a third tone become second tones when spoken? If so the answer is yes and no. Yes, I know the rules, no that was not the issue. This issue is that I do not hear tones well enough to destinguish among them reliably - whether they uttered as a single phoneme or as part of a sentence.

However some people in this thread claim that this is impossible. Appearently, if I just try harder I will eventually hear them.

This might not be entirely false. I tried recording my voice using the built-in win XP sound recorder. And amazingly I could hear hear the tone much better. I even tried singing. When I played it back it sounded terrible, but when I recorded it sounded fine.

Why would playing it back through head phones make difference? I don't know but this does help me to self correct when practicing on my own.