North Korea from China / Dandong

[amandagmu]

Dandong is fairly boring so if you can only go there, just go for a day. A trip from Dalian to Dandong via luxury coach is ~3-4 hours max and under $10 USD (I think it was 60-80 RMB? maybe less) and you can do it over one weekend. To buy the ticket, go to the Victory plaza (across from the Dalian train station). Standing at the train station and facing Victory plaza it's a booth on the right hand side of the plaza, not too far off the corner. Lots of buses lined up there in the mornings.

About going to NK, well I don't know... seems kinda risky if you're an American citizen.......

~Amanda

[koreth]

About safety... A bunch of the people I mentioned this possible trip to had the same reaction. But I'm not sure it's really worth worrying about. Basically there are three things that could happen to you in North Korea:

• You could be a victim of random crime. Not impossible, of course, but from everything I've read, petty crime rates in North Korea are close to nil.
  
• The government could decide you're a spy and throw you in jail. Also not impossible, but bear in mind that you will be observed by government minders 24 hours a day from the time you enter to the time you leave. (No doubt there are hidden cameras in the hotel rooms, or hidden microphones at the very least.) Foreign aid workers are probably in 100x more danger of this than tourists. Further, the last thing North Korea needs right now is a big international incident over kidnapping an American citizen. You'd have to do something pretty insane for them to do more than kick you out of the country.
  
• War could break out. If that happens, you might not be any safer in Dandong or even Beijing than in Pyongyang. More to the point, it's unlikely (though again, not impossible) that the situation would go from normal to warfare in the space of four days -- if it looked like things were especially tense on the day the tour started, one could just pay the cancellation fee and not show up for the bus.
  

So for this American, at least, curiosity far outweighs the potential dangers (and I'm pretty risk-averse when it comes to my personal safety.) If only my schedule would have cooperated...

[Pravit]

Sounds almost too good to be true - one of the travel companies will take us(just us two) for only 4000RMB/person, but he seems convinced that it will be OK for us to travel together with the Chinese group. I am highly skeptical, but right now it seems like the only choice. Will let the forum know if it works out.

Update: He has never taken Americans before, but says he did not have any problem taking UK, Italian, or Singapore nationals in the same group as Chinese last year. The other travel agencies I contacted seem to require even people from those countries to travel in a separate group from Chinese tourists. He says the procedures for Americans this year are pretty much the same as for Europeans/other nationalities, so maybe we have a chance here. He also mentioned that it might not be the best idea to send the passports all the way to Dandong, but if we would be in Beijing 2-3 days before the trip, he could have someone in Beijing do the visas for us. Of course, I'd be a bit nervous handing over our passports to some guy in Beijing to get our North Korean visa done, but I suppose it's less risky than sending your passport off to some random travel agency in Dandong.

[flameproof]

Around May 1st isn't a good date. It's one of those "whole-china-on-the-road" times. Will have to pay full price for all flights since I need to fly in from Hong Kong....

Pravit

What are the exact trip dates? I should be in BJ around May 10th or so. I am not sure if I squeeze it in this time though. Anybody in that agency speaks English?

And how they arrange the visa? They will do that? And how long it will take? Or can I get one myself when in BJ?

koreth

I wouldn't worry about safety. But better leave that "100 cracking Kim Il Sung Jokes" book home. I guess it will be the one time in your life you really better shut up and adopt the Chinese "everything is wonderful here" attitude.

[Pravit]

Exact trip dates: They seemed pretty flexible with dates, but it could be because August is so far away. According to most of the agencies I've spoken with, they have groups leaving almost every day. I don't know if he speaks English; best bet is to call or write an e-mail.

And how they arrange the visa? They will do that? And how long it will take? Or can I get one myself when in BJ?

Yes, they will do the visa. He said he could get someone in Beijing to do it, but you would have to contact him for details. I think the agency has to do it for you though; otherwise I'd just waltz into the DPRK embassy and do it myself.

If you do ever contact them, could you please mention 王千文/Pravit? I'm giving these companies a fair amount of publicity, after all...

About safety: I've read enough travelogues from people who went over there to feel safe about the whole thing. I can't imagine being the victim of random crime considering you'll be escorted by DPRK personnel the entire time.

[aussie_mate]

i'm in dandong and have made contact with the various agencies mentioned on this forum and a few others. The cheapest I've been quoted by far for foreigners is (tianma) at 430-500euros. The price does vary for different nationalities. FYI I am a HK and Australian citizen travelling in China on my HK citizenship but (hoping to) enter DPRK on my Aus passport. Tianma initally said 500euros for my aus passport but the offered me 430euros since I'm a HK citizen.

All the other agencies offered a price range of 700-800euros. Although, I'm a bit suspicious now how tianma can do it with such a large price difference.

Also, these prices were quoted on the spot as I only arrived in dandong 3 days ago and 1st made contact with tianma yesterday. I went back this morning and submitted all my details and they seem fairly confident for getting me into DPRK on the 14th which amounts to approx. 4 days notice. Coincidentally, 2 other agencies also said I can get in by that time.

[koreth]

Good news! The dates I was given for my class in Dalian were wrong; it actually starts about when I originally thought it would, which means I will be able to join you guys for the August 15 tour. Hopefully that'll help drop the prices down a bit.

Unfortunately I'm not in China now and won't be until the middle of July, so any visa stuff that requires me to be there will have to wait a few months. What's the latest word on whether they can handle that from overseas? To be honest I'm far more nervous about sending my passport off to an unknown travel agency in another country than I am about four days in North Korea...

[Pravit]

Aussie: Tianma gave me a pretty high price, but it could be because I'm US citizen. There was the same problem of Chinese and other nationalities having to travel in seperate groups as well, driving up the price. Were there any foreigner groups leaving on your dates(besides you?) Or are they OK with you travelling with the Chinese since you have HK passport?

Koreth: The companies I've talked to all mentioned that they could handle the visa relatively quickly, and in the case of koreatrip.net, if you didn't want to send your passport over, they could get someone in Beijing to do it if you got there 2-3 days before you wanted to go.

[aussie_mate]

Ok, so I got a call from tianma this morning saying "their north korean counterpart will not take foreigners" but before you freak out please read on.

Afterwards, I made contact with 丹东铁通旅行社　（linked from Pravit's post) and arranged an immediate meeting with Mr Zhang, the head manager/boss. Coincidentally, his printer broke down so I had a chance to fully question him about the visa process.

Firstly, you CAN get a visa in Dandong (and also Shenyang). There is a department here with DPRK consulate representatives all year round. This is the place that all Dandong agencies obtain a visa from. Ie. passports are NOT sent to and from Beijing.

You should make contact with the agency well in advance of your trip so that you can provide all the necessary details to them 10 days before the exact time of departure. Note this isn't trivial and will include matters such as workplace, reference contact and whether or not you speak chinese. All of these can eventually affect your price and chances for a visa application.

Once your details have been submitted (email is sufficient), the agency will "make contact" with a travel agency on the DPRK side to make a preminilary assessment of your case. These "travel agencies" are actually 3 official separate immigration departments of the DPRK. One handles "sport (ie atheletes)", the other "communist youth league exchange" and "political exchange". Interestingly, the Ariyang period is handled by "political exchange" department as it is used to promote the status of DPRK.

If you are given the all-clear, you must be able to be in Dandong to hand over your passport at a Maximum 2 days before departure.

In terms of cost, as of today I was given a total cost of 4300rmb includ. Ariyang 3rd class tickets. This is because I am a "chinese speaking Australian". Chinese speaking means I will not need an English speaking guide and Australia is fairly neutral with DPRK. To help you guys out, I also mde the following inquiries:

For non chinese speaking foreigner groups of:

<5 ppl- 7000rmb p.p includes personal english speaking guide and joining with chinese tour.

5-10 ppl - 5000rmb p.p includes english speaking guide and and joining with chinese tour.

>10 ppl - 4000rmb p.p includes english speaking guide and own transport.

For chinese speaking foreigners (esp students) Mr Zhang said he is able to persuade the DPRK authorities to allow you to join a chinese tour group without the additional cost of an english speaking tour guide hence 4000rmb is sufficient.

Note the english speaking guide is unavoidable as he/she is officially saunctioned by the DPRK to explain and introduce each sight not just merely to tell you what to do/not do.

In light of what Mr Zhang said and also the exp of the american tourists mentioned in the previous posts, I suspect Tianma's "guanxi" with their DPRK contact is not very good.

As for tour itinery, all the programs I've seen are exactly the same cept for some timing differences.

I have made a 500rmb deposit (fully reimbursable if visa application fails) and singed a contract. If everything goes well, I am sceduled to go in with the group on the 13th.

Just a point of note, be very careful and thorough in obtaining and outlining of the contract conditions. There is currently little to no quick dispute resolution process in China so if any should arise, your chances of getting any kind of recourse is next to nothing if it is not at least written down in writing.

[aussie_mate]

Also, if you want the trip organised leaving to and from Beijing or Shenyang that can also be done with an additional cost of about 1000rmb or so.

Plus like Pravit says if you go there any time soon please mention me (the Australian HK citizen will do) or at least mention you obtained their details from the web. I've been travelling around china for about 6 months now and I've found most people/businesses are still to grasp the importance of "word-of-mouth" /customer service so it would be good if we can try and do something to change that.

[koreth]

Does anyone know what items are allowed into the country? For example, I'll be traveling in China with my laptop and my Treo (which is useless as a phone in Asia; I'm bringing it for PlecoDict.) Will I have to find some kind of rent-a-locker in Dandong to stash that stuff, or can I take it with me?

I can imagine they'd confiscate anything resembling a phone, but how about the laptop? How about a regular non-phone PDA? I'd rather not leave my laptop in the hands of their customs people -- I'd be afraid the temptation to try to see what's on it would be too great for them, and although they'd probably fail (its disk is encrypted, standard policy for my company to protect against theft) they could well break it in the attempt.

[Pravit]

No clue about the laptop, but personally I'm going to look for a safe place in Beijing or Dandong to keep all my stuff - I always buy tons of stuff whenever I go to China and it would probably be a bit of a hassle to lug it all along to North Korea.

[johnd]

Will I have to find some kind of rent-a-locker in Dandong to stash that stuff

I wouldn't trust any locker in China with those kind of valuables. I suggest you stay in a decent quality hotel before you go, and arrange to store your stuff with them, all packed up in a locked bag. Or maybe the travel agent will look after them. Any option is a calculated risk.

[pandaxiongmao]

They will take your mobile phone away from you when you enter, and give it back to you when you leave. If you have a PDA, they might assume it is a phone and do the same.

I've heard reports of them simply confiscating camcorders. They probably get used to tape visitors and offer you an overpriced VCD at the end when you are leaving. At least that is the way it was 2 years ago.

I've known people that took laptops and brought them back. But you certainly won't be going online while you are in North Korea.

[koreth]

Oh, I certainly wouldn't expect to go online. I'd want to bring my laptop with me for two reasons: to keep it with me (so it won't go missing) and so I can type up a travelogue at the end of each day while it's still fresh in my mind. But if I can't bring it, then I think johnd's advice of staying at a nice hotel the night before in Dandong and getting them to stash it away for a few days is probably the best idea.

Also, I'd like to put in a vote for an English-speaking tour. My Chinese level is not advanced enough yet that I'd be likely to understand all of what a Chinese-speaking guide had to say (especially if he or she speaks Chinese with a thick Korean accent). Yeah, I know that'll raise the price -- sorry, I'm studying as fast as I can!

If the only option is to go with a Chinese tour group, then I'm still interested, though. I'll just look confused more often.

[Pravit]

Aussie, I didn't see your other posts in this thread until today - they were hidden on the bottom of the third page! Excellent information. Sounds like I might be able to make it to the DPRK after all! Tell us how everything went when you get back.

Koreth: I think an English speaking tour would be great, but it seems quite difficult to gather together just a few people from the internet - though I'm sure tons of people would want to go if they knew there was actually an affordable option. But who knows, a group seems to have materialized for london82, so maybe there will be one in August...等着瞧...I'd be willing to pay 5000RMB to get an English tour guide, but certainly not 800 Euros...

Panda: You've been to DPRK before? How'd you get there?

[flameproof]

I've heard reports of them simply confiscating camcorders.

I read that digital cameras are allowed, and most can make some sort of camcorder videos too. Just make sure you have enough memory.

[aussie_mate]

ok, i arrived back yesterday. The trip went smoothly with no big hassles so I'm more than happy to recommend Dandong Railway International Travel Service. Here's their contact details:

张晓枫 (zhang xiao feng)

mobile: 13842536688

phone:0415-2021617

msn: ritsdd75@hotmail.com

email: ritsdd@163.com

http://www.koreatrip.net

As for North Korea, let's just say it was both bizarre and a little bit scary. It is communism taken to the extreme.

A word of advice, try your best to not take ANY form of electronic equipment in (other than your camera of course). The country is literally stuck in a perpetual time warp and anything that they haven't seen before is treated with suspicion. For example, as I was leaving the country, they noticed an USB card reader at the bottom of my bag. I told them what it was but they still insisted I turn on my camera and flick through a few photos (to prove I was a tourist I assume).

Also, RESPECT their rules. When they say you can't take photos, don't. Doing so will make trouble for you, your guide and your tour group. One person in my group was caught taking pictures on the train from 新义洲 to 平样 and it took quite a bit of time for our north korean guide to soothe the (plain clothes) policemen down. Otherwise our guide said they will go through your camera and I assume possible confiscation.

Personally, I felt there was nothing I hadn't seen before in the poorer parts of China but don't take any risks.

[anonymoose]

I'd be interested to join provided I am available at the time.

[Pravit]

Whoa! I had thought you were going on May 13th...welcome back!

Aussie_mate, did you end up going on your HK or Australian passport? Were you able to travel together with a Chinese tour group? Also, if you don't mind me asking, are you originally HK or Australian? Just thought it might have influenced your chances of getting the DPRK visa...

Also, did you take all your things over to NK, or leave some stuff in Dandong?