Any river names with 河? (besides 黄河，银河）

[xianu]

I was speaking with a friend of mine, and for some reason the topic of river names came up. I know in ancient texts 河 tended to refer specifically to the Yellow River 黄河 and 江 usually referred to 长江, unless another name was given. Then thinking about it, we were able to come up with other rivers with 江 in the name, but not other rivers besides 黄河 with 河 in the names. Neither of us are geographers by any stretch of the imagination, so I am not surprised we couldn't come up with any. On a whim I checked my reverse CH-E dictionary for 河 entries, and the only other "name" was the 银河. Can anyone offer me some other rivers with 河 in the name?

[cutty]

There are lots of 河，in China or in foreign countries, nature rivers or man made canals

海河，淮河，尼罗河，亚马孙河，密西西比河，赛那河，莱茵河，大运河，巴拿马运河，苏伊士运河

It seems most rivers in foreign countries are all named with河。

河 is also used to name small local river such as 金水河，卫津河。

[xianu]

i meant in China. My I was wondering whether He, being THE river in CHinese civilization might have had such importance that they refrained from naming other rivers in China. I don't count the foreign rivers simply bc most, like 尼罗河，亚马孙河，etc, didn't have any influence on the development of CHinese culture, and were named in the post-modern world as transliterations of their names. I forgot about the Huai River, but where is the "Hai River" 海河？

[Ian_Lee]

银河 is not the name of a river. It is the galaxy.

川 is another name for river (now more commonly used in Japanese). For example, 四川 is the province where 4 rivers traverse. 银川 is the capital of Ningxia.

[roddy]

Wikipedia has a list. A very quick scan seems to say that those flowing into the South China Sea are more likely to be 江s or 水s, and those flowing into the Yellow Sea 河s. I'm not sure if that's just coincidence or there's some reason (regional variation? average length?) for it.

[cutty]

海河 is in Tianjin。

Here is a list of rivers in China at Wikipedia:

http://zh.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=%E4%B8%AD%E5%9C%8B%E6%B2%B3%E6%B5%81%E5%88%97%E8%A1%A8&variant=zh-cn

I don't see any particular reason to name a river as 河 or 江。

[gato]

Wikipedia has a list. A very quick scan seems to say that those flowing into the South China Sea are more likely to be 江s or 水s, and those flowing into the Yellow Sea 河s.

金山词霸 confirms what Roddy said.

江jiāng

- 南方的河流多称“江”,如:“珠江”、“沅江”;北方的河流多称“河”,如:“洛河”、“渭河”、“漳河”

Since these characters were created when China wasn't a country yet, but lots of smaller states, maybe ‘河' is the word for river in one of the northern languages, and '江' the word for river in one of the southern.

[imron]

And don't forget the 戴河 of 南戴河/北戴河 fame.

[xianu]

This makes much more sense now. What do you think of this theory?: The northern rivers are probably named with He 河 because of their relationship to the Yellow River. Being that the "start" of Chinese civilization began along the Yellow River, all smaller rivers in the north were likely so named because they were seen as inferior to the river of all rivers. The Jiang, being the river of all rivers in the south probably takes precedence in southern river names, as well, for the same reason. THe Yinhe 银河, being part of the Chinese cosmology important to the Zhou (and thus centered along the northern river) was seen as the celestial mirror to the terrestial Huanghe. We "know" (accroding to records and legends) that the ancient sage kings traveled the "nine zhou" and were in the south taming the wild, flood-prone plains of the Yangtze river areas. Probably using he vs. jiang was also a way of categorizing the land for geographical purposes. "he's" in the north and "jiang's" in the south.

[Lu]

How about: He was the northern word for river, Jiang the Southern. The northerners named the biggest river in their area the River (like Rome, the City), and the southerners likewise. Because of the different word for river, many rivers in the north, including the River, are He, and many in the south are Jiang.

Just made that up, but it sounds a bit more plausible to me than the other way around.

Taiwan has the Danshuihe and the Aihe (and others, I'm sure, that I don't know about).

[xianu]

Well, that's what I thought I said, but it sounds prettier than how I put it.

Since Taiwan didn't figure into Chinese history till much later, I also wasn't counting that.

Also, having just read the "Forum Rules" I realized I didn't do my research before I asked the question, and broke one of the rules. (woopsidoopsie) I just looked at an historical map from the Northern-Southern States period (311-581-ish). It seems that the larger rivers in the north were generally named "he" but many many smaller rivers in the Yellow River bend area are either "shui" or "chuan" (my characters still aren't working. Stupid tablet pc platform!) In the south, even what looks to be what the pearl river is now, was also called a "shui." In the Yangtze River delta area, they are mostly "shui''s" as well. Even the Huai river is Huaishui here. There are a few "jiang's" there, as well. Sorry to have bothered you all without doing my research.

[roddy]

I'm actually in mixed minds about that rule, as (for example in this case) even a non-researched question can lead to some interesting discussion, and the forums would be a pretty dull place if everyone answered their own questions before asking them. But at the same time you do get people who should know how to use a dictionary asking 'what does 猫 mean?'. It's that, and I suppose people who would just type a curt 'Are there any rivers named 河 apart from the Yellow River' without the extra info you provided. Anyway, that was a brief public service announcement which breaches my own rules on off-topic posting, so lets forgive each other.

[xianu]

all is good, roddy. Thanks for the comments and understaanding. I have to say, these kinds of discussions are a lot of fun. Lots of these topics are ones I never even question, and just kind of assumed in the back of my mind as a "just because."

[正在看牡丹]

MInd you ,this is not really "my" reply. I read this article in the great magazine <<咬文嚼字>>(2002, P6-21) the other day and it gives a reasonable account. I'll give a brief summary of this article.

Changjiang River as the dividing line:

Southern area: 长江,闽江,钱塘江,怒江,雅鲁藏布江,澜沧江,湘江,赣江etc.

Northern area: 黄河,淮河,辽河,滦河,渭河,海河and its five main tributaries 永定河,子牙河,大清河,南北运河,etc.

<<尚书.禹贡>>孔颖达疏:"江以南,水无大小,俗人皆呼为江." (To the south of the Changjiang River, the waters are all called 江, small or large.)

Why? The following is the authors' assumption.

1. The tributaries of Changjiang River(江) and Huanghe River(河) are named after them respectively. LIke 九江,九河 mentioned in <<尚书.禹贡>>.

2. Semantics. 江 means "大河"(large 河) with big flow amount, abundant water resources and big precipitation, as contrasted to 河.

Therefore, although East-northern area belongs to the northern area, the "waters" there generally called 江instead of 河 because of its small vaporizing rate and abundant flow, such as 黑龙江,松花江,乌苏里江,嫩江,鸭绿江etc.

3. According to <<方言与中国文化>>(周振鹤等), it might have some relations to ancient dialects. P179: "北方称河流历来常用河和水两字,南方却历来常用江和溪两字."(NOrthern dialect: 河/水he2/shui3. Southern dialect: 江/溪jiang1/xi1.)

Hope it helps!

BTW, this is a great forum! It's lucky for me to find it (through another friend)!