Things to do with a tutor

[WoAiJolinTsai]

There was a post on this a while ago, but I didn't really find any answers in the thread. My dilemma right now is that my main goal is to improve speaking and my secondary goal is to improve my character recognition, however I haven't really found a way to do the first one with my tutor.

We meet 4 times a week for two hours. Our sessions consist of her teaching me characters (all speaking is in Chinese) and then she takes out one of my vocabulary lists (usually put together from words I don't know from Chinesepod advanced lessons) and reviews the vocab with me.

What we are doing now is OK, and I see a little improvement in my speaking as our lessons are completely in Chinese... but I would like to get more "real life" speaking practice in as our only dialogues now consist of me asking stuff like this “上面的部分是什么？“ and "这里的辈是长辈的辈吗？“

What on earth can I do to change this?

[kudra]

Not sure, but you could give her the vocabulary list before hand. Tell her that you don't want to write any characters, but you want to talk about topics that use the vocabulary. I kind of did this with a tutor using David and Helen. It sometimes devolved into her checking my reading, but if I had prepared more I think it could have been more about -- when talking about topic X using vocabulary Y, these are the ways you would say it. Then work from there. Again, this kind of thing takes preparation on everyones part, and it's tough on the student, since it would seem that you have to learn a lot of the material yourself beforehand, but if you could work hard preparing a couple sessions to show what you want, then it might be easier for your tutor to prepare how you want her to prepare, which would be more efficient.

my 2 cents.

[kdavid]

Generally, I'll read through a text or two while my tutor corrects ALL of my pronunciation flaws. Afterwards, I paraphrase the text trying to incorporate all of the new vocabulary and grammar points (I try and pull it all from memory, but will glance at the text if I feel I'm missing something). Then we usually have a short chit chat about the topic discussed in the text and whether or not we agree with the characters' views.

Also, I always read through the vocabulary lists and reading a few times before class, so we don't cover "new" material, but instead review and use what I've been studying on my own.

[thph2006]

You can always read, write and listen to Chinese by yourself. The thing you can't do alone is have a conversation. If I had a tutor I'd spend 100% of the time learning how to communicate with a native Chinese speaker. You could start your session by going through a dialog you've prepared in advance and then have the tutor start to improvise, changing her part slightly which will force you to start thinking in communication mode rather than study mode. She could throw in additional vocabulary or let the conversation evolve as it would in a natural situation. Having props would also be helpful. For example, you could meet in a coffee shop to practice a prepared "having coffee" dialog. Then expand the conversation to "how much does a cup of coffee cost" or "would you like to order a little something to eat", etc. The nice thing about being in the actual environment the dialog relates to is that the tutor can use visual aids if you don't understand what she's asking.

[flameproof]

my secondary goal is to improve my character recognition, however I haven't really found a way to do the first one with my tutor.

character recognition you can improve in 3 ways:

1. reading a lot

2. reading a lot

3. reading a lot

For that you DON'T need a teacher. You just need GOOD reading material you are INTERESTED in.

[mirgcire]

You just need GOOD reading material

Flameproof, this advice is easy to give, but the hard part is finding reading material that is at the right level. Any material that I pick up requires so much dictionary work that that it seldom seems worth the effort.

Have you found any reading material that is at a consistently low level?

[mirgcire]

I don't remember where I found this link, but I think the author has some very useful things to say about using a tutor, and perhaps learning in general. I have used his "red, yellow, green" metaphore often when discussing learning stratigies in other contexts.

http://www.paulwilt.com/Chinese/Technique/how_to_use_a_tutor.htm

It does not contain any specific strategies though. I think the suggestion made kdavid is really good. If he doesn't mind me paraphrasing:

1) Read material you have chosen to be at your level

2) Get pronounciation help.

3) Paraphrase and talk about the material to reinforce the vocabulary

Just one extra point: I like to get an agreement up front that any time the tutor introduces new vocabulary he/she needs to write it down in hanzi and pinyin in my notebook. That way I have something to review later.

[Shadowdh]

Mirgcire... many thanks for the link... its a good read...

[flameproof]

Have you found any reading material that is at a consistently low level?

Primary school books are suitable.

I ask recently about simple reading material:

http://www.chinese-forums.com/index.php?/topic/15-cctv-learn-chinese928

I specially love gato suggestion, "A simple difficult problem". 20 short stories with a CD

http://www.lovemandarin.com/book.asp?id=3272

Since I prefer to read Chinese with NO Pinyin I started to retype them. Here is the 2nd one, I think it's really funny:

聪明的作家

因为需要一个安静的写作环境，作家在郊外买了一所房子住了下来。工作累了，就在房子前面空旷的草地上散散步。

刚开始的几个星期，一切都很好，安静的环境对作家的写作非常有帮助。但是有一天，草地上来了几个十多岁的男孩儿，在草地上踢足球，从下午一直踢到晚上。一连几天，孩子们天天都来踢球，吵得作家心情很不好，连一个字都写不出来。于是作家决定想办法让孩子们换个地方踢球。

一天，孩子们踢完球，作家对孩子们说：“你们踢得真好，我很喜欢看你们踢球。如果你们每天来这里踢球给我看，我每天给你们十块钱卖汽水儿喝。“孩子们很高兴， 第二天拼命的为作家表演他们的足球技术。

过了几天，作家对孩子们说：“真对不起，我的钱不多了，从明天起，我只能每天给你们五块钱了。“孩子们很不高兴，但还是答应了作家的这个条件。但他们踢球的时候已经不像以前那么拼命了。

又过了几天，作家对孩子们说：“真是不好意思，我的工作丢了，快没钱了。在我找到工作以前，我只能每天给你们一块钱了。”

“一块钱？”孩子们差点儿跳了起来，“我们才不会为了一块钱跟你浪费时间呢。你再也别想看到我们踢球了！“

孩子们生气地走了。从此，作家房前的草地上又恢复了往日的安静。

total GB: [449] unique GB: [192]

mirgcire

I think it is difficult to generalize. It depends a little on your focus. If your focus is "communication" I would completely leave out grammar. But I agree on the point that you can not expect a teacher to teach you, you need to use the teacher as a tool and give him specific instructions what to teach. If you leave the teaching to the teacher you will learn nothing in most cases.

[kdavid]

You can always read, write and listen to Chinese by yourself.

Keep in mind that while you can read to yourself, you cannot correct your own pronunciation. Having a native speaker listen to you reading a text provides this opportunity. And, with this language, pronunciation is everything.

[yingguoguy]

I agree with most of what's been said here. A couple of things that no-one's mentioned yet that I found worked well when working with language partners:

1. Start each lesson by asking what they've done since you last saw them and what they plan to do this week. Tell them about what you've done. A lot of the time this will naturally lead to a real conversation. One of the best lessons I've had (actually in Japanese) was started by my tutor asking about a Rememberence Day poppy I was wearing and lead on to a 2 hour discussion about attitudes towards the Second World War.

2. Have a blank piece of paper. Write down any words *you* need to use during the conversation to keep it going. Not the words your tutor uses as they will not all be useful and it will break the conversation.

3. This method doesn't always lead to interesting converstation and sometimes you just seem to have nothing to say. So always bring some work you've done outside of the lesson with you. Practice exams and exercises from the book can be useful, but I found the best thing was to keep a book where I'd try and write a short essay or diary every night (only 100 characters or so).

4. When the tutor corrects the writing there will usually be some grammar or vocabulary issues arising from this. Make sentences with the appropriate sentence patterns. (Try and avoid the tutor rewriting the whole essay in chengyu if you can though)

5. The essays are hopefully interesting enough that they should spark another natural topic of conversation.

5. I'm generally against reading aloud, but are going to I think it's generally better to read aloud something you've written yourself with words in your active vocabulary than suffer endless corrections on tones for words you don't use.

These are things I've done with language exchange partners, rather than tutors (Though some of these were training to be teachers). I guess your tutor will have some firm idea's about the way they want to teach you. In my experience the worst thing in the world is when your tutor actually tries to teach you something. I find it much more useful to go into each lesson having a good idea of the stuff you want to go over.

[atitarev]

Mirgcire wrote: Flameproof, this advice is easy to give, but the hard part is finding reading material that is at the right level. Any material that I pick up requires so much dictionary work that that it seldom seems worth the effort.

Have you found any reading material that is at a consistently low level?

On improving reading skills:

Reading a structured textbook, which goes from basic into more advanced stuff, is the way to do it.

I've been using "New Practical Chinese Reader", which has a few volumes. It will take some time before you complete it and:

1) you know roughly how many characters you know after each volume

2) It's a good pace and the reading is always on your level, your level increases with chapters

3) There is audio, you can listen

4) You can always review the characters you learneed in an organaised manner

5) Characters used in the text are common, useful and frequently repeated.

My 0.00002 cents

[mirgcire]

atitarev, I took your suggestion seriously ...

I've been using "New Practical Chinese Reader", which has a few volumes. It will take some time before you complete it

I bought volume 1 and have read most of it. This is a very good text book. It introduces concepts in a uniformly paced, sensible manner. Each of the lessons reinforces the previous by repeating grammar and vocabulary. The story line is relevent and consistent. It uses pinyin and hanzi, introducing each in a progressive manner. The format of the audio is kind of mind numbing but the audio quality is very clear.

So I plan to continue to work through these texts on my own. I hope the subsequent volumes are as well designed as the first.

[imron]

Keep in mind that while you can read to yourself, you cannot correct your own pronunciation.

So long as you are not a complete beginner, then this is not strictly true. As long as you have developed an ear for what is correct pronunciation and what is incorrect pronunciation then you can correct your own pronunciation by recording yourself speaking, listening to the recording, and then making adjustments accordingly. This is especially so if you have a recording of a native speaker saying the same thing.

[flameproof]

Reading a structured textbook, which goes from basic into more advanced stuff, is the way to do it.

The problem is that many textbooks are way too boring. I simple can't read those. I am not interested. I get more fun out of short stories, even they are not really learning material.

I don't think I need a teacher, but if, I would use em as a drill master. Giving them a list of words that I want to get used to.

Interestingly Steve Kaufmann does not want to talk with anybody before he's able to follow TV and radio.

http://thelinguist.blogs.com/how_to_learn_english_and/2007/03/when_do_we_need.html

I couldn't do that with my frequent trips to China....

[SteveK]

I am in no hurry to speak Russian, although whenever I do have an opportunity I like to try to use it. If I had to travel regularly to Russia I would speak more, and it would probably help my Russian. My only point is that we should concentrate on those activities that we can easily do and not feel pressure to do things that are not readily available. I would certainly not pay for the pleasure of chatting with someone in Russian. I would not take classes. I also feel that my listening and reading are helping me a lot and they are within my control so I focus on them and relax. Speaking with a native speaker is not within my control and even if I find someone to talk to it is a little stressful. I am in no hurry because I do not need to be.

Steve

www.thelinguist.blogs.com

[kdavid]

So long as you are not a complete beginner, then this is not strictly true. As long as you have developed an ear for what is correct pronunciation and what is incorrect pronunciation then you can correct your own pronunciation by recording yourself speaking, listening to the recording, and then making adjustments accordingly. This is especially so if you have a recording of a native speaker saying the same thing.

Eh, I'm not going to argue against this, but I really don't know.

I'd feel much better reading aloud and having a native speaker correct me when I'm wrong. There are plenty of times where I've thought I've said something incorrectly and actually pronounced it correctly, and other times where it's been the other way around. Then again, I've only been studying in Harbin for 7 months, so I'm definitely still very much a beginner.

[kdavid]

So I plan to continue to work through these texts on my own. I hope the subsequent volumes are as well designed as the first.

Mirgcire:

The NCPR Series stops using pinyin after the 1st volume, but the layout and approach is the same through volume four, which I've just begun using. Volumes 5 and 6 do not use any English whatsoever aside from providing a translation of the new words.

[bomaci]

So long as you are not a complete beginner, then this is not strictly true. As long as you have developed an ear for what is correct pronunciation and what is incorrect pronunciation then you can correct your own pronunciation by recording yourself speaking, listening to the recording, and then making adjustments accordingly. This is especially so if you have a recording of a native speaker saying the same thing.

I don't quite agree with this. The reason being that it can be very difficult to tell the difference between yourself and the recording. I think the absoulte best way to practice pronunciation would be to have native speaking tutor who you could practice sentences with. First you would practice saying the sentence in chorus with the tutor many many times until you feel that you have got the hang of it. Then you could switch to saying the sentence after the tutor and let him or her correct any mistakes in the phonemes you might be making.

[imron]

I'm not sayin it's the best way to do it, just that it is possible to correct your own pronunciation if you don't have access to a native speaker to help you. Obviously this is not going to be true for complete beginners, but for intermediate and above, recording yourself speaking and then listening to that, and making corrections based on that, is one way to improve your speaking/pronunciation.