"Learning Chinese not so hard"

[Long Pan]

From one of China Daily’s columnist.

(…) the pronunciation system has been simplified in modern Chinese. Separate characters are used less and less. Instead, most expressions and phrases contain two or more characters. So, for instance, when you say yinyue, it must mean music - no matter what your tones are. That being the case, Chinese learners don't have to be meticulous in their tones when they walk around China. Sometimes you just have to repeat your key word a few times. Many Chinese speak in their local accents, and all the accents carry some tonal variations. (…)

Indeed, why always stress the difficult points of learning Chinese? I know that in a way it satisfies many of us - students finding an excuse not to be able to speak… teachers creating a touch of inaccessibility around their knowledge. So why not start by telling students what is the simplest fact about Chinese; that it is the most spoken language in the world, which means that it cannot be so complicated otherwise by no way several hundred million people could speak and write it. And if so many people can, why not you ?

OK, this does not mean that it is easy to learn; but at least it is reachable - not like for instance if you wanted to run 100 meters below 10seconds (which only a few hundred people in the world can). So the point that speaking Chinese is commonly reachable should be pointed out from the very beginning. Then it is just a question time (depending of your ability) and priorities (what do you want?); so in fact just a question to deal with oneself; a question under our entire responsibility

[trevelyan]

I'd take his opinion more seriously if there was a verb in that headline.

[HashiriKata]

I'd take his opinion more seriously if there was a verb in that headline.

Headline is a special case, it can go without "legs".

several hundred million people could speak and write it. And if so many people can, why not you ?

Chinese people are supposed to be very clever, aren't they? (But you should catch up with them and see the difference in learning a language as a native and as a non-native.) Nevertheless, you're right in that we shouldn't over-exaggerate the difficulty of learning Chinese. It's definitely learnable and enjoyable if you manage to keep yourself in the right frame of mind.

[anonymoose]

Chinese learners don't have to be meticulous in their tones when they walk around China.

I think it depends what the goals of the learner are. For me personally, if I'm going to bother putting in the considerable effort that it takes to learn a language, then at least I want to try and do it properly.

I'm meticulous when it comes to grammar and vocabulary, so it only makes sense also to be meticulous with tones and pronunciation.

Of course, if you are only a casual visitor to the country, and just want to try out a few phrases, then it does not really matter whether you take it very seriously or not.

However, I contend that correct tones are neccessary for smooth communication. Of course, it is not a black and white issue, and poor tones may still be understood by some listeners, but in general, the better one's control of tones, the smoother a conversation will be. I don't have a problem with tones usually, but I can give an example of a recent miscommunication I experienced as a result of incorrect tones. I wanted to know what subject a particular teacher was teaching, so I asked "tā jiào shénme?" and received "Sally" as an answer.

[xiaojiang216]

问....吻

笔....(一个不该写的字... Hint: 第一声)

化学....滑雪

松鼠....松鼠

声调很重要！

[imron]

Reading between the lines though, directly after saying that tones are not so important, the author then goes on to say:

Sometimes you just have to repeat your key word a few times.

Which to me implies that they are important, because personally, I want people to understand me the first time I say something, rather than after several attempts. It may not matter if all you want to say is "What part of China are you from?" or "I'd like Kung-pao chicken and a bowl of rice please", but if you want to use your Chinese in any sort of functional way, repeating what you want to say 3-4 times is not something you should be aiming for.

[xiaojiang216]

Also, with speaking with a "nice" accent (including mostly correct tones and good pronunciation), native speakers seem to open up more. Sometimes native speakers got annoyed with some of my classmates in Beijing. Generally speaking they had too much confidence and couldn't say anything with correct pronunciation or tones.

But it's always amazing to see how thrilled a native speaker gets when they meet a foreigner who speaks Chinese that sounds native-like.

[kdavid]

Chinese learners don't have to be meticulous in their tones when they walk around China

Has anyone watched the movie "Crazy Stone" (feng1kuang1 de shi2tou2)? It's characters all speak with a broad southern accent. Neither myself nor my girlfriend (Chinese) could understand most of the movie and had to rely on reading the subtitles.

Tones are important. Very important.

[<<恒心>>]

Ok, I'l give it a go...

The writer's point seems to be that there is a lot of "scaremongering" going around and *that* is what needs to be addressed. A secondary point is that modern Chinese is not the truly scary isolating language that it once was (classical Chinese); rather, it's basically disyllabic, which helps when you screw up your tones.

I am a non-native speaker who is pursuing a career in TCFL. Being a teacher, I have to believe that learning/teaching Chinese to foreigners is actually possible-- a prioiri. Am I nuts? Somehow I believe that a) it is possible to teach and learn and that B) native speakers are not automatically good teachers, that non-native teachers might understand their students' needs better somehow... Think about it, and I'm sure they you can recall *one* good teacher in your life who made a difference. Why?

Is it in the subject being taught, or in the teacher doing the teaching?

At the end of the article, the writer laments the current dearth of good Chinese teachers. A good friend of mine (Chinese) failed the last round of TCFL qualifiying tests-- how, I wonder, as a non-native learner? From a teacher's perspective, though, I get it. But how crazy would it be if I succeed where she has failed?

The best Chinese teacher I ever had was a Jewish guy from Brooklyn who taught the hardest Chinese (文言文) -- whole chapters from the 史记, 论语，世说新语，孟子，韩非子，entire 赋 from 苏轼 that we had to memorize and write from memory... He's at the top of his field (historical Chinese dialectology) and he's not even Chinese.

I dunno, he was nuts, I am nuts, I guess... but compared to that stuff, modern Chinese is easy? It's all relative? Arabic will always be harder than Chinese??? (脑子越来越像一瓶浆糊) Learning Chinese is easy if you're willing to lose your mind in the process???

Either that, or it really is possible to learn. Easy? No, never. But then students of Chinese don't have to learn the passe anterieur of french or the soul-crushing cases of Russian and German, or the verb-at-the end-of -the-sentence insanity of Japanese. Xhosa? Agglutinative, tonal language with alveolar clicks? Don't get me started...　　

[gato]

Why so many question marks?

[atitarev]

...But then students of Chinese don't have to learn the passe anterieur of french or the soul-crushing cases of Russian and German...

Foreign students in Russia master Russia on a decent level in one year, especially Europeans, Americans, Arabs.

Another fact: in the former USSR, everyone mastered Russian, including people from various linguistic backgrounds, in China a large percentage can't speak standard Mandarin.

Russia boasts good schools and methods of teaching Russian. I am sure every language can be taught efficiently, it's all to do with teaching methods and learner's motivations and efforts.

[gougou]

But it's always amazing to see how thrilled a native speaker gets when they meet a foreigner who speaks Chinese that sounds native-like.

I realized something funny about this. When I first came to China, tones were virtually non-existent in my speech. After some friends pointed out that my pronunciation wasn't so good, I paid more attention to native speakers and gradually started imitating them. Listening to myself now, I find that I still say many words with the wrong tones, only the sentence as a whole sounds more like a native speaker. Now, however, everybody praises my pronunciation - even though there's still plenty of words I mispronounce.

Somewhat related: I went to play soccer the other day, and one of the Chinese shouted "Shou2qiu3!" Then he added, in a much lower voice: "啊，不对，是手球！"

Like the writer of the editorial, I also believe that tones are not very important for understanding Chinese (that certainly is the case for myself). As in the example above, everybody obviously understood what the guy was talking about, even though the tones were wrong. Yet despite of that, I still pay great attention to tones when studying and try to iron out mistakes in my pronunciation. I don't think it takes much effort (just quite some time to get used to it), and will make you sound so much more professional.

[HashiriKata]

But then students of Chinese don't have to learn the passe anterieur of french or the soul-crushing cases of Russian and German, or the verb-at-the end-of -the-sentence insanity of Japanese. Xhosa? Agglutinative, tonal language with alveolar clicks? Don't get me started...

All these languages are also easy, if you know something about them and have got the will to learn.　　

[gato]

From the article:

In terms of memorization, there are no more than 300 particles that form most characters, with 100 or so used most frequently. The number is by no means harder to deal with than the road signs (written and in symbol form - like the shape of a building at the corner where you must make a right turn) that all drivers have to remember.

Just like knowing the 26 letters of the alphabet makes learning English a breeze.

[Long Pan]

The funny thing is that the example taken by the columnist is not correct: indeed yinyue can be 音乐 (yin1yue4=musique) or 隐约 (yin3yue1=indistinct). But I believe that 隐约 is rather written language than spoken (maybe an advanced learner could confirm). Which leads us to a real difficulty of Chinese (my current big difficulty in fact) : making part between spoken and written vocabulary. All languages have this kind of distinction, but I think it is particularly true in Chinese. And using a rather written word in a conversation often leads to misunderstanding, much more often in fact than wrong tones do.

[gougou]

And using a rather written word in a conversation often leads to misunderstanding, much more often in fact than wrong tones do.

I agree, but I wouldn't limit it to the speaking/writing part. Using any word that a native speaker wouldn't use, i.e. any word that your counterpart doesn't expect in that context, will make communication difficult.

[Long Pan]

For instance, following with the 隐 of my previous remark. If in a conversation you say 这是我的隐私 (yin3si1 – that’s my privacy) even with correct pronunciation and tone, good chance that people will understand 这是我的意思 (yi4si – that’s what I mean). Question is : what you should say (口语) for « that’s my privacy » - is there a native speaker around ?

[<<恒心>>]

Because I'm nuts, like I said.

Sorry for the rant-- it's not directed at anybody at all; these are just some of the questions I torture myself with.

[gougou]

If in a conversation you say 这是我的隐私 (yin3si1 – that’s my privacy) even with correct pronunciation and tone, good chance that people will understand 这是我的意思

Now this I doubt.

Funny, though, that you should mention just this word. One day in a bus, the guy next to me was looking over my shoulder at the book I was studying from, and asked me if I knew what it meant. He explained to me how to use it, too, so I guess it is not too 书面话？

Oh, and a more 口语 way of saying it might be 这不关你的事。

[HashiriKata]

Question is : what you should say (口语) for « that’s my privacy » - is there a native speaker around ?

Hi, I'm not a native speaker (far from it ) but in the situation I'd just say: "这是隐私的" (taken from your 这是我的隐私). I don't think there'll be a chance for this to be taken as "这是我的意思".