SOS:need visa advice

[David W Jackson]

I quit my Uni teaching job yesterday after being undermined by my own FAO, who rather than supporting my decision to exclude a disruptive student, bizarrely sided with the student instead. Go figure. A culture-clash stretch too far for me, I'm afraid.

Anyway, the point is that I'd be grateful for any advice regarding the visa situation I now find myself in. As far as I understand it, on Monday when I go in to finalise the inevitable admin that my decision entails, my visa will be revoked - is that right? I mean, since I'm no longer under their work-unit they will want me to give them my passport and send it off the police to have it revoked or something!@?

So unless I can quickly find a new job - not impossible, I'm interviewing in BJ this week - I need to buy a visa (or change it??) which will allow me to stay here enjoying life with my girlfriend.

Does anyone have clarity about this please? Much obliged as ever.

[kdavid]

If the situation there is like it is here in Harbin, I'm afraid you're right.

Basically, when teachers sign a contract with our school they're given a 1-year visa which is only valid as long as the contract is valid. If the contract is terminated (by either party) so is the visa.

Now, our school hasn't collected any of the departing teachers' passports and physically revoked the visa, but if the visa / passport is scanned it would show that the visa is no longer valid, despite the paper (passport) copy actually saying it still is.

I'm pretty sure you can get a tourist visa from your local embassy until your new job can get you a new visa.

[David W Jackson]

Thanks for that. So I'll have to go to Beijing and sort that out at the Embassy. What about the possibility of getting another kind of visa through one of those agencies. Anyone understand the pros and cons of that?

[Rincewind]

I think there's some misused terminology here. Since you are working, I assume you came on a Z visa. This is only valid for 30 days. So it's not your visa that will be invalid. What you will have now is a Residency Permit. The Permit is valid for 1 year on condition of your employment. Any change to your status (change employer, change address etc) will invalidate your permit until you go to the PSB and get it updated.

Note that it's your Public Security Buero that issues residency permits - not your country's embassy in Beijing.

If your not leaving the country and will have a new job soon, then don't worry. When you get the new job you can then go to the PSB with your new employer and get things sorted. I would only conceive a problem if you are either, going to hang around for some time then leave the country, or if you have a long period of unemployment.

Don't give your old employer your passport. It's not their job to take it to the PSB. It's your job. From this point on you treat your past employer as if they were a stranger in the street. Don't give them anything. If they ask for your passport, make an excuse and leave. As long as you have your passport, you can do that. If you give them the passport, your stuck.

[David W Jackson]

Rincewind you are a lifesaver!

Thank you so very much for your clarity. I really appreciate it. So, if I've understood you correctly I needn't worry or do anything much about it until I find a new job - as long as that's within a relatively short timescale (how long any ideas?) - at which point, I tootle off to the PSB and sort the Residency Permit. Just one more thing: what if they ask me to return my Expert Card? Would that be a problem? Should I comply? At a previous place when I had to leave prematurely, they asked me to contribute to the price of the permit. Although they didn't explicitly say so it seemed to be implied that if I didn't I could kiss the Letter of Release goodbye. In the end we ended up going halves, although I thought it a bit of an outrage. Any thoughts? Thanks again.

[Rincewind]

Technically the Expert certificate belongs to you not the school. You may be asked to pay for the permit if you haven't already done so. I've always had to pay for these myself. Even if they paid for it, it's still yours.

Remember, they may owe you money! If the contract included something like paying for your flights at the end of the contract, then that is usually pro rated to the length of time you worked. So if you did half the year, then your due half the money for your flight.

Additionally, argue that the contract ended at their fault not yours and demand your severance fee - typically $500 USD. Though don't wait for it. Keep the employer on the defence, tidy your loose ends and leave with all your belongings before they cause you any difficulties.

as long as that's within a relatively short timescale (how long any ideas?)

No ideas really. But would think of days not months. It shouldn't be hard to find a job if you are flexible about location. One friend recently changed jobs and took just 3 days to find the new job and arrange the travel. Though it required moving to the other end of China. I know one school that is recruiting for work in Inner Mongolia if you don't mind travel. If you are fussy about location, you might take longer.

[David W Jackson]

Rincewind,

Well you've done it again. Thank you for your precision surgery. I now feel sufficiently armed to take it to them when I have my little tete-a-tete tomorrow. I failed to mention that they pay us at the beginning of the month in advance which means, were it not for the breach penalty position, that I would indeed owe them money. Unless of course, you make the case that since they're at fault and have caused me to incur costs that they have forfeited any right to a refund. Your thoughts?

[David W Jackson]

Rincewind,

Well, I got back from my friend's place and finally managed to look at the contract. It seems to put a spanner in the idea of just upping sticks and quitting:

Modification and Termination of Contract:

"...may be terminated if the parties reach a consensus through consultation"

"Party B has the right to cancel the contract with a written notice to Party A under the following conditions:

1 Party A has not provided Party B with necessary working and living conditions as stipulated in the contract."

These conditions of living and working have all been met since they deal with things like accoms, office etc. There's no stipulation to be directly supported in the event of excluding a student. It's not covered at all. There's no stipulation regarding student bevaviour at all.

I could argue that a necessary working condition is to be free from abuse but I'd still have to give written notice.

What do you make of that? Any suggestions?

[imron]

Regarding the Foreign Expert Certificate, if you look in the back, there is a condition that says it must be returned to the issuing institution once you no longer work there. I can't remember the exact wording, but it's clearly there.

In any event, the Foreign Expert Certificate is essentially useless if you're no longer employed by the school that got it for you. Its only real use is to change RMB to foreign currency, but to do that, you also need a copy of your contract, and a letter from the school (with chop). If you're no longer working there, I doubt the school would write you that letter, therefore you probably won't be able to change money with it anyway.

[David W Jackson]

Imron, thanks for clearing that one up. I guess I'm not the only one to start to doubt my own sanity with so much scope for miscommunication and misunderstanding - not to mention downright malice - surrounding these situations, but my Expert Certificate has vanished from the place where I always keep it. Still have my passport though. There was a page opened on my opera browser favourites that I never new existed, listing every favourite on one page. How does the saying go: just because you're paranoid doesn't mean they're not out to get ya?

Anyway, yesterday I had a meeting with the FAO liaison, her Director and the President of the Uni - a cold, Party apparatchik - who seemed to take great delight telling me how improper it was to leave the class. Of course I agree that penalising the diligent few due to the antics of a bad apple is unfair, but the point seemed to be lost on her. It's all smoke and mirrors and shifting sands. The liaison claimed not to have understood that I didn't want her sending the student back, which is odd since her English is excellent but that's not impossible I suppose. Still, rather than talk about how such miscommunication might be avoided in future, most of the talk centred on the antics of the student concerned, which is odd since he is merely the catalyst, not the real problem. An exercise in scapegoating.

I asked that I be given an assurance that I wouldn't be asked to teach this jackass again, but she refused making it instead contingent on the result of a conversation she intended to have with him yesterday afternoon, all the time barking that I didn't trust her to manage hte problem. Well, she got that bit right. I was told I would be informed of the result. I'm still waiting for that call....what a surprise. More of the same old foreign teacher directed contempt. Wonder if they'll try and withhold the Letter of Release?

[David W Jackson]

Well, thanks to everyone for their input. I now have my letter of release and a new job in BJ. For anyone else struggling to get their heads round the visa thing this link at Dave's is useful:

http://www.eslcafe.com/forums/job/viewtopic.php?t=26047&sid=e5a033db1c20b9a1731087ffcd5f4c20

Have a great holiday.

David:)

[David W Jackson]

My sense of relief was premature it seems. Here's the actual sitrep: I am due to start a new job on the 14th of May in Beijing. On the one hand my new boss says he doesn't know whether he must apply for a new Z visa for me whilst at the same time telling me my existing papers (by which he must mean my - now invalid if previous posts are correct - resident permit in my passport) will be fine for at least 2 months! This seems to run counter to what has been posted earlier re the permit/visa situation. Earlier posts suggested that once a contract of employment was ended the permit was no longer at all valid, does also extend to the visa component? My contract is now ended. I understand that this means my permit is no longer valid. My permit in my passport say it is valid until May 2008. Is it not? Am I now accruing 500RBM per day debt? Does anybody know the real score?!? Is my boss right to believe that I have two months grace within which to do what?: apply for a new Z visa? Upgrade the existing/no longer valid passport permit?

I'm so confused my head hurts and I can't sleep. Help anyone? Thanks.

[roddy]

I am not a lawyer, this is all just as I understand it, etc . . . .

He might not need to get you a new Z visa - the visa just gets you in the country - but your residence permit should be updated with the new employer and address details. You shouldn't (although you could quite possibly get away with it) be working in Beijing on a residence permit that says you are in Qingdao. I wouldn't worry about a transitional period of a month or so, assuming you can see that they are actually working on it and not just saying 'yeah, we'll get around to it'.

[imron]

Agree with roddy. You probably don't need a new Z visa, but your new boss almost certainly does have to apply for a new Foreign Expert Certificate and go through the formalities of updating your residence permit. For this, you will need the letter of release from your previous school, saying that you are no longer working for them. It shouldn't be too difficult for your school to do this, and there's no reason why they can't start working on this now, rather than once you start employment.

[roddy]

Yeah, forgot about the FEC - that may also be necessary. You may also hit upon a problem I've had in the past whereby the Beijng PSB won't take you onto their books until you're officially off the books wherever you used to be. This meant I once had to EMS my passport from Beijing to Harbin, but it all worked out.

Basically it's all doable and it's nothing to get worked up about, as long as you can see progress being made. However, because it's a slightly unusual process - usually people come in, do a job, leave, rather than change jobs, there's more uncertainty about how to do it all.

[David W Jackson]

Thanks Roddy, Imron et al. OK, I think I'm beginning to get it. Don't need a new Z visa. Need to upgrade/change the resident permit. (From Tianjin to Beijing). There is some grace to do that without racking up daily fines. I'm assuming - always dangerous - that since I won't be doing the dancing monkey routine any longer, the FEC is no longer required. As for the Release Letter. All done and dusted. So it's time for some Bob Marley, a lazy lunch and a chill pill or two or three. And who knows, maybe tonight I'll sleep like a baby. Duo xie!

[roddy]

You'll probably need something to back up the residence permit changes - could be a foreign experts certificate, could be the less-commonly seen work permit 外国人就业证(?) which comes via the Ministry of Labor rather than the foreign experts people. Let us know how it works out.

[Rincewind]

David you can relax. Even though you don't start working until the 14th, you've signed the contract. So are employed. Your new employer just has to go down to the PSB with you and their paperwork and get things rubber stamped. Wouldn't leave it as long as 2 months, but sometime soon. There is a grace period for all these things, but I wouldn't test how long that grace is. Don't really see any reason to wait as it only takes a short time to submit the forms. Your employer probably knows no more about this than you do so take the upper hand and tell him what you want.

[imron]

Signed contract or not, if the PSB determines you overstayed your visa/residence permit you'll still be fined, and your new school will probably also be fined for not processing your paperwork in a timely manner. This happened to a teacher at the school I used to work at. Get your new employer to sort things out asap.

[Rincewind]

My point was that once you have signed the contract, there is no need to wait untill you are actaully teaching classes. Tell the empoyer to get on with it. There is no reason to wait other than that your employer probably wants the May holliday clear.