Want to live in China...Tsinghua IMBA or top 25 US MBA?

[mandarinstudent]

If you don't remember, I was the one that posted this thread and I appreciate all of your responses. After some soul searching, I have decided to go for the MBA. The English teaching sector is just too unstable for me. I have also made a discovery. When I posted the first thread, I was under the impression that the only way to get my wife into the US was through a green card that takes years to obtain. I have discovered that there is something called a K visa that only takes 9 months. Because I have found this out, an online MBA isn't the only option because I can bring my wife with me to the US.

Short recap from my last thread: I'm married to a Chinese person. We want to live in China eventually. Now I am teaching English, but am looking to make a change.

Stats:

-American

-27 years old

-4.0 GPA in Finance from a State University in the US(disclaimer: I switched schools in the middle. At my first school I was a dumbass teenager and only partied. I took time off, got the partying out of my system and went to a different school. The grades from my first college changed to "transfer credits" at my second college. Technically, I graduated with a 4.0, but my overall GPA is 3.1.)

-Summa cum Laude

-Recipient of the SCORE scholarship for excellence in Finance

-720 GMAT 96th percentile

-31 months of post graduate work experience by August 2008 matriculation. After graduation I came to China and became an English teacher to be with my now-wife. I couldn't find work in Finance in China. I also worked my way through college as an accounting intern (not included in the 31 months...I know that some colleges don't count work you did while in college)

-Intermediate Chinese Level (currently studying)

Now, with good application essays and these stats I could definitely get into a top 25 US program, possibly a top 15, and if the gods smile down on me, a top 10. Every college has a few "weirdos" (scuba instructors, firemen, military, etc.) in the class to round out a class full of investment bankers and marketing execs. My time in China, coupled with the high GMAT score and Finance degree, makes me a decent "weirdo" candidate. Schools in the US are prepared for career switchers like myself, providing access to high quality summer internships that could lead to full time positions. I could take this route, bringing back the MBA and experience to China. There is just one problem. Unless I get a large scholarship (possible for the bottom end of the top 25, but not definite), I will have to go deep into debt. This in itself is not a problem because given the high starting salaries for graduates of the schools I am looking at, I can have the debt payed back within a few years. The problem lies in the fact that the larger the debt, the longer my wife and I will have to stay in the US. Of course, I have no problem with this, but my wife wants to spend as little time as possible out of China. You give me an unhappy wife and I will show you an unhappy husband somewhere.

Because we are looking to live in China, I am also looking at Chinese MBA programs. Although CEIBS is the top program in Asia, it is out of the question because I can't plunk down 30,000 USD all in one go. You can't apply for US federal student aid while going to CEIBS. I also looked at Tsinghua's IMBA program. On paper it looks nice...MIT connections...study abroad opportunities...good companies recruit there...since I plan on living in China, I can make more Chinese connections going to a Chinese school...etc. My GMAT is a good 100 points higher than the median PLUS I will be a minority. I'm sure that a school trying to become an international brand is trying to court high GMAT scoring Americans. Chances for a substantial scholarship are looking pretty good. I won't have to worry about debt. What I am wondering is how do foreigners fare that come out of this program? Will it be an asset or a liability being a American with a Tsinghua IMBA? Any graduates of a Chinese MBA program have anything to say? What are your experiences after graduation? Can a career switcher like myself be successful coming out of the Tsinghua IMBA program? Thanks for the input.

[pandaxiongmao]

A K-Visa in the USA is for somebody that you plan to marry in the USA. Since you have already married your wife, it doesn't seem like it would be possible. See:

http://www.immigration.com/faq/kvisa.html#60

Have you tried contacting CEIBS? Maybe they have ideas about how you could finance your education there.

[mandarinstudent]

Go here for K-3 Visa information. It is for a spouse or a fiancee.

After looking at the CEIBS website, it seems like you have to pony up the money yourself if you are a non-chinese. The website says that they only give out like 3 scholarships or something and loans are only for Chinese residents. (side note: They have to pay them back in 3 years! Kind of stiff, huh?) The odds of my getting a scholarship aren't too great. Have any of you heard anything different about financing an MBA at CEIBS as a foreigner?

[pandaxiongmao]

Here is a page about getting loans for US citizens directly enrolled in foreign (as in non US) schools:

http://www.internationalstudentloan.com/foreign_enrolled/moreinfo.html

I haven't heard anything different about CEIBS than you have, but I do know that schools don't always post all the possibilities on their website. Hence, my suggestion about contacting them directly.

Thanks for the additional info regarding K visas also being possible after marriage in a foreign country.

[mandarinstudent]

Thanks for the loan link. Even with the loan, I still think I will skip on CEIBS. Their program doesn't allow for a summer internship. After graduating I will be in the same position I was when I started, which is having a degree but not much experience. That is why I want to know how Americans do after graduating from Tsinghua with an IMBA.

[koa056]

Hi. I am extremely interested in this post and all the replies. My name is Grant (22, American, Graduating from Seattle U in June) and I was just accepted into Tsinghua's IMBA program. Currently, I'm just trying to find out anything and everything about the program and school (especially from personal blogs and websites). I'm trying to do everything possible to attend this fall but I have one or two things I have to work on before I can decide. One of them is the question on how I’m going to finance it...I'm currently in the middle of Midterms so I’m kind of putting it on the side for now. That's one of the reasons why your post interests me.

I’ve done a lot of reading online about the Tsinghua and the IMBA program and have no doubt to believe that the program is the top in China. I too wondered about the benefits/disadvantages of being an American. The impression that I got from the readings is that this degree is a golden ticket for any nationality. As for my profile, I have to be completely honest with you that I was (and still am) shocked that I was accepted into this prestigious program. My grades, GMAT score, and even age probably wouldn’t get me anywhere near other US B-Schools with a 16% acceptance rate. However, I do think what got me in was an overall application package coupled with a huge passion to learn about China. Plus to I agree with you that they are trying to build an international brand but also build an international community within the program.

I’m off to work but here are some things I’ve been reading up on…

http://www.businessweek.com/magazine/content/06_02/b3966074.htm

http://www.businessweek.com/bschools/content/dec2005/bs2005128_9698_bs056.htm

http://www.businessweek.com/bschools/china/

http://www.businessweek.com/pdfs/2006/0602_chinabschools.pdf

http://www.chinaeconomicreview.com/mba/

Grant

[mandarinstudent]

Yeah, I have also read those articles you posted, but they don't mention the most important (to me) things:

1. How do Americans in the program fare when it comes to summer internships?

2. What is the average salary for an American coming out of the program?

Many people on this forum mentioned that they would be going to Tsinghua for their MBA. I was hoping to hear some of their stories.

[galaygobi]

I'd first like to say check this link:

http://www.chinese-forums.com/index.php?/topic/10846-english-taught-master-in-managementbusiness-in-china

In summary, there are posts from an IMBA student at Tsinghua and his views.

Now for my view (which I partially expressed in the above thread):

I am not an IMBA student at Tsinghua, but an IMBA student at Beida. Honestly the programs in China seem good for only one thing, China experience. If you want the degree (which may become more valuable down the road), then definitely come here. If you want the true MBA experience, I'd say stay in the US.

The problem with the program at Beida, and I'd have to think Tsinghua too, is that Chinese applicants go through a different route than those International students. For Beida, they take a Chinese entrance exam for the MBA which is different than the GMAT. Also, there is no official English language requirement to join the IMBA program (in terms of TOEFL, IELTS, etc). What this means is communication is quite tough. As group projects and presentations are required to be in English for the IMBA program, expect to "carry" a lot of your groups. This might vary from class to class, but generally in my class the students are lazy. There are some government officials, upper-class people, etc. which don't seem to have the "drive" that one would expect to see in an MBA class. Talking to a lot of the students, their main concern is the degree, and don' t want to concentrate on marks, etc.

I know this can be a problem at any MBA program, but it is especially prominent here in China. From what I gather from some of the professors, is that universities in China work like a SOE. Basically, the government expects the amount of students going in to equal that going out. Students then "expect" to graduate, which leads to very lazy behavior. Sometimes the foreign professors ask the class who wants to go into ibanking/consulting after graduation and there are less than 5 people who raise their hands. I know, it's an overplayed stereotype about MBA's and ibanking/consulting, but it shows really the go-getters and the general attitude about the program here.

With your high scores, I'd say don't sell yourself for less. Out of the international students at Beida, it was hard to find someone with a profile similar to yours. As proved earlier, by koa056, the admission requirements at Tsinghua/Beida aren't up to what they are back home. Honestly, no offence Grant, but without stellar grades/experience/GMAT scores, an undergraduate shouldn't be accepted into an MBA program.

Currently out of the 20 or so international students at the Beida program, not one of them has an internship for the upcoming summer. One problem is the lack of motivation even among lots of the international students. You get people who aren't completely focused on the MBA program, but focused more on China.

On the flip side, the overall experience is once in a lifetime, and the professors at Beida are awesome. I've had 3 foreign professors so in my 2 semesters, with degrees from Harvard, Oxford, Stanford. Also the Chinese professors they select for the IMBA program are really liberal, and fun and also come from these top schools in the US. Last semester we joked around that out of all their graduate degrees, our professor with the "worst" degree came from Berkeley

So basically, if you want the Chinese experience I'd say to do the MBA in China. If you want the true MBA experience, then stay in the States. I don't know what line of work you want to get into, but if you get into a top school in the States there is no problem finding a job in China. One of my friends graduated from a top US b-school last year, took some of the Chinese MBA courses at Beida for a semester to gain guanxi and more language experience, and is now working in private equity in Beijing.

[mandarinstudent]

Thanks for the thoughtful reply. Wow...out of 20 international students, none have an internship lined up? That sounds pretty crazy. Do you know any 2nd year international students? What do they have lined up after graduation?

[galaygobi]

I guess I made it sound worse than it really is. About 1/5 of the class went to NUS (National University of Singapore) for the dual-degree. For the NUS program, you are in Beijing terms 1, 4 and are in Singapore terms 2, 3. Those students seemed more like real "MBA students" and go-getters. Basically, anyone going on the dual-degree seems to know what they want from an MBA.

Most of the international students are Korean students, and many of the ones in this particular class are either sponsored through their company, or run family businesses. Obviously they won't do summer internships.

However, the rest of the students, I know one student who has been working part time for a small company, but the rest don't seem to have anything lined up. With regards to the second year international students I only know one of them personally. He seems to have his head on straight, and has been working part time now for a venture capital firm here in Beijing. I'm quite sure he'll be able to find a job after graduation no problem. Again, it's what you make out of it. If you really want the internships and full-time jobs and do your homework, put in the extra work, it will come. I'm just trying to say it seems like it's not the common view among the students. They don't seem to want to work for what they want. They expect something to come to them.

[mpallard]

Galaygobi,

I'm slightly confused. Are all your courses in English? If so does that not defeat the purpose of studying in China.

[galaygobi]

Some people say it might. However, if your HSK is 6 or above, and I'd highly recommend it being around the 10+ mark, as you're competing against native Chinese speakers, you can enroll in the FMBA course, which are all taught in Chinese. It's hard to gain depth out of the program unless you are extremely comfortable with the language.

My course you're taking all classes in English. You may say it defeats the purpose, being in English, and your classmates all speaking english. However, you gain lots of China perspective on topics, with your professors being Chinese and expressing their views, and 80% of your classmates being Chinese locals too. For foreigners, we take a class called China in Transition which is basically the issues with China today. In other classes, lots of the cases we do are actually about China, etc.

[mandarinstudent]

I have talked to two current students at Tsinghua and here is what they said:

-If you want to work and live in China, you would be better off with a Chinese MBA. Basically, they made it sound like if you got an MBA from a school like Cornell and came to China to work, you would be beaten out by the Tsinghua graduates. I don't know if I buy that...

-The program is largely academic, backing up what galaygobi said in his posts. There aren't so many events to attend and you spend most of your time doing "book work" whereas in the US you spend alot of time networking and attending events.

-How do foreigners do with a Tsinghua MBA? Nobody knows! This is the first year that they have had a truly international class. Summer internships? Both of them were first year students going into the summer and neither of them had anything lined up yet. They also said that the other students don' t have anything for an internship. The reason? "Most of the students here are entrepreneurs," or, "Things work differently in China." I have read online that in the US you start jockeying for a summer internship pretty much in your first semester. This seems kind of strange.

-No financial aid for foreigners as of right now. You have to foot the bill totally by savings or private loans. The main reason I was even thinking of Tsinghua is because my GMAT is 100 points above the school's mean and I have a chance at a free ride. When talking to the students, I pointed out the fact that in the US, if a school had a 620 GMAT average and a foreign student with a 720 GMAT applied, that student would get a nice scholarship package. The school could increase its diversity as well as raise its GMAT average. The response? "Tsinghua isn't really a 620 school." The Chinese students don't have to take the GMAT and the 620 is for the foreign students only. Again, I don't know if Tsinghua isn't really a "620 school"...Why are they admitting students, like Grant from the earlier post, that are still in college and don't have stellar stats? Seems to contradict what the Tsinghua students were saying.

Well, if anyone is interested, this is what I have learned so far. I think that I might be passing on Tsinghua. Because I want to work in corporate finance (financial analysis, controller, etc.), I think it might be safer to graduate from a US school, work for a few years after graduation at a multinational company in the US that has offices in China, then be transferred to China as an expat. Given that Tsinghua is still in its "experimental stages" when it comes to foreigners, it just isn't worth it unless I get a totally free ride.

[gato]

Tsinghua isn't really a 620 school." The Chinese students don't have to take the GMAT and the 620 is for the foreign students only. Again, I don't know if Tsinghua isn't really a "620 school"

I guess what they are saying is that like many other mainland graduate programs, MBA programs have a dual-track admission system. Because not so many foreigners apply, the admissions standard for foreigners is probably significantly lower. Presumably employers are aware of that, as well. In generally, you should think about this question more from the employer's perspective: what a multinational company in PRC would consider in making a hiring decision.

Chinese nationals don't take the GMAT as part of the admission process. Instead, they are required to take a national MBA exam. If they get a high enough score on this, they will take a written exam specific for that school. If they score high enough on that, they will go through an in-person interview.

By the way, for at least Chinese nationals, Tsinghua requires at least three years of work experience for those with only a Bachelor's degree and at least two years for those with a Master's degree or higher.

See here for the testing procedure for Tsinghua's MBA program and the question on the Tshinghua written exam (they are on the Party's economic policy).

http://learning.sohu.com/20050311/n224650246.shtml

清华大学2005年MBA招生分数线及复试通知

http://hzmba.com/news/2005-2/2005222171520.htm

清华2005年秋季MBA入学复试政治理论考试通知

The site below mentions that over 4500 students applied for 360 spots in the Tsinghua MBA program (out of which 100 of which are in the English-language IMBA program). Most of those 4500 are undoubtedly Chinese nationals. That level of competition is probably comparable to the top MBA programs in the US.

The site below also has a comparison of salaries for graduates from various mainland MBA programs (unclear if foreigner students are included). Beijing University is at the top, with about US$45000/year for part-time students and US$31000 for full-time.

http://biz.163.com/special/f/00021H1L/finddingbestmba.html

[mandarinstudent]

I guess what they are saying is that like many other mainland graduate programs, MBA programs have a dual-track admission system. Because not so many foreigners apply, the admissions standard for foreigners is probably significantly lower. Presumably employers are aware of that, as well. In generally, you should think about this question more from the employer's perspective: what a multinational company in PRC would consider in making a hiring decision.

Right, this is what I meant. In the US, a "620 school" would be around the 3rd or 4th tier. While Tsinghua might not technically be a "620 school" because most of the students don't even take the GMAT, when it is time to get a job the prospective employers would see me as someone that graduated from a "620 school". I'm sure that employers know that, when it comes to admittance, the foreigners at Tsinghua are held to a lower standard than their Chinese counterparts. This is why I said that I am not so sure that Tsinghua isn't a "620 school", because employers probably see foreigners graduating from this program as "620 school" graduates.

[gato]

Probably should give you wife a rundown of these issues. Maybe she'd be willing to go live in the US for four, five years.

I'd say that there's a big variable here, which is your Chinese skills. If you were completely fluent in Chinese, both in speaking and reading (writing is more secondary), and can demonstrate your abilities, possibly with coursework in the Chinese MBA program, then your marketability would shoot up dramatically. And it would be much easier to improve your Chinese if you were to stay in China than to go to the US.

By the way, the Tsinghua MBA website mentions that they give a small number of merit scholarships of 5000 yuan to first-year students and additional scholarships are available to second-years based on first-year performance.

[mandarinstudent]

Probably should give you wife a rundown of these issues. Maybe she'd be willing to go live in the US for four, five years.

My wife is fine with going to the US for a few years, she just wants to end up living in China. I just wanted to at least consider Chinese schools because we wouldn't have to leave China at all. Right now it seems that Tsinghua has no track record when it comes to foreigners and it hasn't really proven itself. I know that Tsinghua is one of the top schools in China, but there really are no stats concerning foreigners that come out of the program. On top of that, there are no scholarships for foreigners. Maybe in 10 years, after Tsinghua has really gotten the international program going, things will be different, but I want to go to school in 2008, not 2018.

By the way, the Tsinghua MBA website mentions that they give a small number of merit scholarships of 5000 yuan to first-year students and additional scholarships are available to second-years based on first-year performance.

That's true, but both people I talked to said that scholarships are for Chinese students only.

[gato]

Your best option seems then to go to a US program. Try to work for an investment, consulting, or accounting firm for a couple years and transfer internally back to China.

[Kodiak10]

I'm a 1st year student at Tsinghua. Thought I would add my persepctive on a few issues.

Internships: I got one back in February with Lenovo and will be doing it until the end of the month. It is in their Finance Department which overseas a number of PE and VC funds (a graduate of Kellogg who went to BEIDA for a semester and an American from Berkley are also working there). This summer, there are opportunities depending on your Chinese level - I have had many interviews with banks so far since they are the most organized when it comes to recruiting. I have not gotten any offers either due to not having a Finance background or lack of Chinese. If I had one or the other, I feel like I would have an offer with a bank. Besides the bank, the Tsinghua network can help you find a job in China. One just has to have focus on an industry, determination, and Chinese skills. My Chinese is at about a 5 HSK, I can read most of the newspaper and listen in on most conversations. I went for banking at first since an MNC bank internship is like gold on your resume when looking for full-time jobs in China. My second route is going for an industry internship which as a foreigner and Tsinghua connections should not be hard at all. The biggest question is whether they want you to do functional position or teach the CEO English. The answer depends on your Chinese ability.

Chinese: A lot of Westerrn MBAs who come to China do not make learning Chinese a priority which I feel is a big mistake on their part. This is the biggest reason I chose Tsinghua - you have two years to get your Chinese language up to fluency. If a Tsinghua MBA can speak fluent Chinese and an Ivy league MBA does not, the one who speaks Chinese gets the job, contract, or relationship edge.

Western/Non-Western - If your goal is to get the 100K salary after graduation, better go to the US. For Westerners, China/Tsinghua specializes in getting your foot in the door to the Chinese economy and establishing a Chinese network that will last your entire career. I plan on the big dividends coming from my decision to come here not immediately after but perhaps in 10 to 15 years from now. As for now, it will be tough, including sales pitches to prosepctive employers and lots of research, while perfecting my Chinese. I do not think recruiters think Chinese MBAs are better than Westerners here. I am part of a number of leadership posts and clubs at school. To be honest, the most sought after students at Tsinghua are the undergraduate engineers and finance majors. They are the less than one percent of China. It is also a good idea to get to meet those students, as President Hu Jintao happened to be one of those undergraduate engineering students.

[galaygobi]

Kodiak10: Just have a couple questions regarding what you said.

About the Lenovo internship, I sort of got the idea that you're doing the internship right now? As in you're working part time for the company? Our school actually had something setup with Lenovo at the beginning of the first semester, promising overseas students positions at Lenovo part-time during the year. However, this failed due to Lenovo not realizing that we aren't allowed to work on F/X visas. Was this a problem for you?

Another thing about the comment regarding Hu Jintao. I think it's just coincidence that this "era" of politicians all seem to be engineers from Tsinghua. In the future however, it is predicted that they will all be overseas educated from top schools. It may be equally as valuable to go home and network with them.