mainland locales for learning cantonese

[hunxueer]

hey all.

i'm wondering if anyone can suggest places in guangdong that would be suitable for studying cantonese, either in a university program or independently (preferred). i guess the key characteristic here is that cantonese (and not fujian or chaozhouhua or another drastically different dialect) is the main language spoken. other than that lifestyle is probably a concern, though i've been in china for about three years and am not necessarily in need of being in the constant company of other foreigners (my mandarin is functional).

i'm thinking that i'd prefer avoiding the giant places like guangzhou and shenzhen since it seems it would be way too easy to get caught up in the jaded-expats scenes there and never speak chinese--cantonese or mandarin--again, haha. so somewhere smaller would be nice, i think, but i'm not sure which dialects are spoken where or how to go about researching some of the smaller places online.

thanks for any suggestions.

[skylee]

How about Hong Kong (make it Kowloon or the New Territories if you want it to be on the mainland)?

More and more expats speak Cantonese here. Take a look at this sitcom -> http://www.tudou.com/playlist/playindex.do?lid=372678&mode=0#5937763

[grimacekid]

Hello hunxueer,

I am not sure about places that provide Cantonese learning for foreigner in Guangdong, since most of the foreigner language training courses are for Mandarine. Well to foreigners, Hong Kong is a perfect place for Cantonese learning.

As for mainland, just as you said that you perfer small place and avoid Guangzhou and Shenzhen, then I think I can probably suggest Zhuhai. It is quite a nice place and the public security here is better than most of the cities around Pearl River Delta. I am just not sure which school you can go to, maybe Sun Yat-Sen University Zhuhai College or Gateway language Village

Just same as Shenzhen, there are more and more people from the north of China come to Zhuhai and settled down, many places are occupied by northenmen like Jida district, I find more people there speak very standard Mandarine than Cantonese, and some of them cann’t understand Cantonese. But there are still more local citizens in Xiangzhou district, as for Cantonese learning, Xiangzhou district of Zhuhai may be a better choice.

Cheers!

[hunxueer]

hey skylee, thanks for that link. most interesting! are those two genuine expats, or could they be hong kong natives (isn't there a number of caucasians born and raised in hong kong?) the problem with hong kong for me is that the cost of living there is prohibitive, and i most certainly couldn't afford to study there at this point.

grimacekid, thanks for the suggestion. a few people have brought up zhuhai. maybe i should into it, but i'm a little afraid it might be resort-y for my tastes (i've known of a few expats who've lived there who love it but seem to have tastes that are pretty much opposite of mine).

[zozzen]

the problem of learning cantonese in Guangdong is the confusion between standard cantonese and accented one. The population of non-cantonese speakers in these areas is huge and it's not easy for any new takers to distinguish the differences.

I've talked with some people living in Dongguan (東莞) which is one of manufacturing hubs in Guangdong province and i feel that they speak perfectly standard cantonese. Perhaps it's a good place (and cost friendly) to learn cantonese .

[grimacekid]

the problem of learning cantonese in Guangdong is the confusion between standard cantonese and accented one.

Yes, the accent thing is a great problem, even in Guangdong, different accents are hugh. But how to define what the standard cantonese is? I think cantonese inside Guangdong should be always with accents, even people in Guangzhou they speak with a certain accent.

Personally, and somehow, I naturally take Hongkong’s cantonese as the standard, I don’t know why, maybe I am wrong , but I think most of the young cantonese as me feel so.

The cantonese Hongkong people speak sounds soft and gentle, and the phraseology is more moderate. Well, base on HK’s economical and cultural impact, the language in Guangdong has been influencting by HK greatly, whenever there comes out a new slang or phase in HK and it appears in the TV, the use of this slang would spread widely and rapidly through Guangdong.

So if you don’t have speacial requirements, HK is still the ideal place for cantonese learning.

Cheers~

[johnd]

Huizhou is a place that I had a really good feeling about - just as a day visitor. It is a small and authentic local city, by Chinese standards anyway, still with some leafy streets and thousands of motorbikes, but also increasingly prosperous. It's to the north-east of Shenzhen, and east of Dongguan (Dongguan being factory central as far as I'm concerned). The centre is dominated by Huizhou West Lake - yea, not the real West Lake, but pretty nice nevertheless. The University is right next to the lake, you have to cross some bridges to get there, but I've no idea about courses, sorry

It's most definitely is not a Mandarin speaking place, but but but, I can't comment on the standard-ness of their Cantonese, can anyone else help?

Anyway, when you asked for a small place that's not full of expats, Huizhou is the place that came to mind.

[grimacekid]

It's most definitely is not a Mandarin speaking place, but but but, I

can't comment on the standard-ness of their Cantonese, can anyone else

help?

The local people speak Hakka in Huizhou.

[johnd]

Oh, what a pity

[hunxueer]

ok, in poking around the 'net, looking at maps, and the like, a few places have come up as possibilities--in addition the aforementioned 东莞 (dongguan)，i've also read a bit about 湛江 (zhanjiang) and 江门 (jiangmen). does anybody know about these, particularly in terms of dialect, but also general information?

[Quest]

Just go to Guangzhou and choose a district without foreigners to live. There's no shortage of native cantonese speakers there. However, due to the influx of nonlocals it may take you a while initially to identify who they are and where they are "hiding". You will learn standard cantonese in Guangzhou.

[redmini]

i have the impression that Hong Kong's cantonese is very much slang focused, whereas the cantonese in Guang Zhou is more 'proper' and literal.

is that right? i havent interacted with many people from Guang Zhou before, so i cant speak from experience but apparently it's the case according to a few friends...

[Quest]

I think more people in Hong Kong speak with 懒音 (e.g. "heng" becomes "hen"). In that regard, Guangzhou's Cantonese is probably more proper. Other than that, Guangzhou Cantonese can be as slangy and as dirty as anywhere else. I don't think there's much difference between Guangzhou and Hong Kong cantonese in terms of accent or slang.

[studentyoung]

Yes, the accent thing is a great problem, even in Guangdong, different accents are hugh. But how to define what the standard cantonese is? I think cantonese inside Guangdong should be always with accents, even people in Guangzhou they speak with a certain accent.

Yes, you are right that local Guangzhou people speak with a certain accent. (But I would slightly point out that Guangzhou is the capital of Guangdong province in mainland China. No, no, I don’t mean I want to deny that the unique importance of Hong Kong Special Administrative Region is the economical and financial center in Southeast Asia.)

Personally, and somehow, I naturally take Hongkong’s cantonese as the standard, I don’t know why, maybe I am wrong , but I think most of the young cantonese as me feel so.

The cantonese Hongkong people speak sounds soft and gentle, and the phraseology is more moderate. Well, base on HK’s economical and cultural impact, the language in Guangdong has been influencting by HK greatly, whenever there comes out a new slang or phase in HK and it appears in the TV, the use of this slang would spread widely and rapidly through Guangdong.

I don’t think you are worng, grimacekid. In fact I think that’s your own opinion and should be respected. And from your logic, I think you are very practical. I understand and respect that completely.

However, if you can forget “right” or “wrong” for a while, I would like to ask you some questions. (No, I don’t want you challenge you, but I just maybe there are some things you haven’t thought of. )

First, can you tell me which English is more standard, British English or American English, BBC’s or VOA’s?

Second, no “standard English” ever appears on prefaces in my “Oxford Advanced Learner’s English-Chinese Dictionary ” by 金圣华, 余光中, 郑仰平, 王佐良，李北达 and A P Cowie. In fact, all these advanced scholars just tried to tell people how they spared no effort to let advanced learners to understand and use current English, made their translation both accurate and fluent. It seems very clear that they tried to avoid “standard English”.

Third, below is an article which shows that the argument of “Standard Cantonese” is still between Hong Kong’s advanced scholars and common citizens.

http://cache.baidu.com/c?word=%BA%CE%3B%CE%C4%BB%E3&url=http%3A//www%2Ecantonese%2Eorg%2Ecn/Articles/2007/200703/Articles%5F20070307113228%2Ehtml&p=987cde16d9c342ff57eb90624754c6&user=baidu

Forth, I would like to just slightly point out that it seems Hong Kong people prefer to mix more English words in Cantonese in their daily colloquial expressions than Guangzhou’s people. For example, Hong Kong people prefer to say “去食lunch(go have luch)”, while Guangzhou people say, “去食晏”. (No, I don’t think it is right or wrong, but it is just a phenomenon. )

I myself try try to avoid telling other what should be considered as “standard Cantonese”. I prefer to tell others, “If you like Hong Kong’s culture (especially its movies), feel its great influence in economy and culture, want to communicate with Hong Kong’s people, please learn Hong Kong’s Cantonese. If you want to stay in Guangzhou or even Guangdong, are attracted by Guangzhou’s culture and going to do business with Guangzhou’s locals, Guangzhou’s Cantonese is your best choice.”

Of course, it is up to you to decide whether to learn Hong Kong’s Cantonese or Guangzhou’s Cantonese.

I don't think there's much difference between Guangzhou and Hong Kong cantonese in terms of accent or slang.

Rightly so.

Thanks!