青

[Ian_Lee]

Does any poster know why the Chinese word for light green color -- 青 -- becomes blue in Korean and Japanese?

Would it be possible that those Koreans and Japanese scholars who adapted this word into their vocabulary were color blind?

[skylee]

現代漢語詞典 says that 青 can mean both blue and green. Example for blue is 青天 (like 青天白日滿地紅旗 does not have the green colour in it).

The same dictionary says that 青 can also mean black, like 青布 = black cloth, 青絲 = black hair.

I think korean and japanese have just adopted one of the meanings, not colour blind.

[Ian_Lee]

But Chinese would never use 青 to describe the sea as Japanese does

[skylee]

Probably that is because that is Japanese, not Chinese, right?

[geek_frappa]

chinese brown is not japanese brown.

but both chinese and japanese agree that it is called 'crap'.

[nnt]

What about this:

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您的位置：首页-> 下载分类-> 游戏娱乐-> 动作射击-> Blue Dragon

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Did you see a green dragon or a blue dragon?

[geek_frappa]

wah!! good example!!!

[smithsgj]

There's a word in Welsh, "glas", which apparently can mean just about any colour you might find in nature. Bit like 青 then.

[ax]

in my opinion, chinese concept of color is different from other languages.

color is more like an adjective signifying the quality of that color, how it makes the person feel.

green/blue 青 [qing] actually means "good, perfect"

最青的貨 [zui qing de huo]= the best quality of goods.

青 [qing] can be used combine other words and also means good.

請 [qing] = good word: to invite

精 [jing] = good rice: essence

情 [qing] = good heart, love, romance

凊 [qing] = good water, clear

ax

[bathrobe]

I don't have a definitive reply on this. I have difficulty understanding exactly what colour 青 describes in Chinese. (Indeed, I would be interested in knowing whether 青 was the same colour in ancient times as it is in modern Chinese).

As for Japanese, you need to get away from seeing everything in terms of characters. You need to see Japanese in terms of Japanese words, not Chinese characters.

The Japanese word in question is あお, which traditionally covers both blue and green. To write it, the Japanese can use a number of Chinese characters.

青　蒼　碧　藍 etc.

Naturally it is more precise to use the character that is closest to the colour being described. But given that the word あお is a Japanese word that has its own particular range of meaning, the Japanese seem to have settled on one character to write the word あお in most situations, and that is 青. Those who have a literary bent, or those who are precise users of characters may be more discriminating, but for ordinary purposes 青 seems to have become the standard.

At least, that is my take on the question.

[ax]

here's a nice site to check your color:

http://www.blueidea.com/column/quester/2003/1411.asp

ax

[Ian_Lee]

The Japanese word in question is あお, which traditionally covers both blue and green.

But there is a more common word for green color in Japanese -- midori

If green and blue is exchangable, then those booths in JR station should be called "aoi madoguti" instead of "midori no madoguti"!

[bathrobe]

I can only reply from my gut feeling.

I think あお is a very old word in Japanese. It can refer to the blue of the sea and the sky and the green of young leaves.

I suspect that あお has undergone a subtle change of meaning in Japanese. When the Japanese first introduced traffic lights, the green light was named 青信号, which was OK at the time. But for the postwar generation the word あお seems to have shifted towards the blue end of the spectrum. This may be under the influence of English, it may be for other reasons. As a result, the Japanese changed the colour of their traffic lights to make them look bluer. That's why the 'green light' in Japan looks so blue compared to that of other countries.

I don't think colour terms are really that simple. People don't necessarily see or describe colour in terms of pure colour. Often a colour will have an association with specific situations. So the colour that is described as 青 in some situations (the colour of leaves) might be 緑 in others.

Sorry I can't do better than this, but this is my personal view of how it works.

[cathaykid]

i remember back when i was in junior school,a Chinese teacher mentioned that 蓝 was a plant from which they made the colour 青,and the original meaning of 青 was 蓝...

[zudora]

Linguists love this stuff...George Lakoff gave a whole book chapter to color words (in Women, Fire, and Dangerous Things). If i remember correctly, the word あお is indeed older than "midori", and reflected a lack of distinction between the concepts of blue and green. It turns out that this is pretty common in other languages.

zudora

[ala]

As for Japanese' date=' you need to get away from seeing everything in terms of characters. You need to see Japanese in terms of [i']Japanese words, not Chinese characters.[/i] The Japanese word in question is あお, which traditionally covers both blue and green. To write it, the Japanese can use a number of Chinese characters. 青　蒼　碧　藍 etc.

Naturally it is more precise to use the character that is closest to the colour being described. But given that the word あお is a Japanese word that has its own particular range of meaning, the Japanese seem to have settled on one character to write the word あお in most situations, and that is 青.

青 means blue or green in Chinese also (青天， 青草), and the ambiguity has been historical. Bathrobe, I have always thought that the Japanese got the color ambiguity from the Chinese usage. 青 in its purity should be blue, and in its impure color should be green. Even though Japanese words are not necessarily characters, their meanings often transform to that of the characters they use. The notions of 青 and ao are uncannily close in both languages (although modern usages for both languages have each become more specialized toward the other color). Regardless of whether ao's meaning was influenced by the Chinese or not, the Japanese's choosing 青 for ao was very appropriate (not as you say a compromise of a specific Chinese color to fit the "range of meaning" in Japanese). The Chinese character 青 covers the same broad spectrum as the Japanese ao did at one point. 青 in Chinese didn't just serve as an ambiguous though specific "natural" bluish green color of the mountains, it was actually the color blue with hues reaching to green for various stages of "impurity." Even today, for artists' pigment (where the purity of a color is emphasized), 青 refers to blue. Also, the Chinese color spectrum goes in the order: 红橙黃绿青蓝紫 (Roygbiv) where 青 is blue, and 蓝 is indigo.

战国时期有一句文章里的话，可以借以了解那时人们对此的认识：“青出于蓝而靑于

蓝”。这里第一个“靑”是蓝色染料，“蓝”是绿色的蓝草。第二个“靑”是颜色，是

什么颜色呢？应该包括蓝色染料的蓝色和蓝草的绿色。说蓝色染料比绿色的蓝草更靑，说明那时蓝色被看作靑的正色，而绿色被看作不正的青色。

[nnt]

The word xanh in Vietnamese, is the exact translation of 青 (Vietnamese pinyin: thanh Pinyin: qing), and just as ambiguous:

青天 :thanh thiên : trời xanh = blue sky

青草 :thanh thảo : cỏ xanh = green grass

青絲 :thanh ty : tóc xanh = black hair

The last sense is still used in Vietnamese, but has sometimes been misunderstood as "blue" (perhaps due to trendy dyed hair).

[bathrobe]

Regardless of whether ao's meaning was influenced by the Chinese or not, the Japanese's choosing 青 for ao was very appropriate (not as you say a compromise of a specific Chinese color to fit the "range of meaning" in Japanese)

I am not an expert on colours.

Still, I prefer to look at actual language rather than Chinese characters, which can mislead.

For instance, why does Japanese use the character 赤 whereas Chinese uses the character 红? I personally feel (and I may prove to be wrong) that the reason is that 赤 is used to write 'akai', the normal Japanese word for red. 红 is used to write 'beni', which is not so commonly used.

On the other hand, 赤 means 'red' in Chinese, but 红 is the normal adjective used in everyday life.

Is there a difference in meaning between Japanese 赤 and Chinese 红 that can be attributed to the difference in characters? Or is it simply the fact that the 'normal' words for 'red' in the two languages just happen to be written with different characters?

I'm curious and willing to be convinced.

[nnt]

On the other hand, 赤 means 'red' in Chinese, but 红 is the normal adjective used in everyday life.

Is there a difference in meaning between Japanese 赤 and Chinese 红 that can be attributed to the difference in characters? Or is it simply the fact that the 'normal' words for 'red' in the two languages just happen to be written with different characters?

I think that since the time the Japanese borrowed Chinese script, they have just kept the old usage of 赤 as red in Tang's wen yan (I don't think they borrowed the baihua...) as in 赤兔, 赤心, just as they kept some old Chinese chengyus... Usages have evolved differently in different countries, so it's not surprising that some old usage in ancient Chinese are still used in present day Kanji (while creating new characters and new usages elsewhere).

It's just like canadian French compared with standard French, or American English compared with British English.

[nnt]

On the other hand, 赤 means 'red' in Chinese, but 红 is the normal adjective used in everyday life.

Is there a difference in meaning between Japanese 赤 and Chinese 红 that can be attributed to the difference in characters? Or is it simply the fact that the 'normal' words for 'red' in the two languages just happen to be written with different characters?

I think that since the time the Japanese borrowed Chinese script, they have just kept the old usage of 赤 as red in Tang's wen yan (I don't think they borrowed the baihua...) as in 赤帝, 赤心, just as they kept some old Chinese chengyus... Usages have evolved differently in different countries, so it's not surprising that some old usage in ancient Chinese are still used in present day Kanji (while new characters and new usages were also created).

It's just like canadian French compared with standard French, or American English compared with British English.