Mandarin Chinese...?

[Tomii515]

OK! For people that know me on the Japanese forums (which I dobt anyone here does... www.jref.com/forum/ ), I pick up random languages all the time, andI really only focus on my three main ones: Japanese, French, and Korean.

Well, for another side-for-fun language, I was thinking maybe some Mandarin Chinese.

In my Kanji Dictionary thingy (Japanese characters barrowed from chinese = kanji), it gives the Mandarin Chinese pronuciation and meaning of the words and stuff... So I could learn the writing along with stuff...

The things that seem hard is the tones, but more the pronunciation.

I was wondering if someone wouldn't mind helping me, or if there are any good websites?

Also, I have a friend who speak Mandarin Chinese, and also Cantonese Chinese, but yeah... Maybe she could help me...

Anyways, thanks~

-Tommy

[Guest mamba9]

I too have studied Japanese, and have been studying Mandarin Chinese for little over 4 months now.

"Kanji Dictionary...So I could learn the writing..." I dont think so. Japanese kanji is more simplified then traditional chinese characters, yet not as simplified as the simplified chinese characters, so its somewhere in between. I also wouldnt count on those On/Kun readings for their true pronounciation, and their meanings as well.

Soo... you have to start from scratch. You cant rely on your previous knowledge in Japanese, for the most part, it will confuse you. As for tones, its really not that hard, it just looks impossible on paper, i say just dive in.

A really good place to start in is the fsi language website

( http://fsi-language-courses.com/Chinese.aspx )

Then maybe some pimsleur/chinesepod101, which is good speaking/listening practice.

[Tomii515]

no no no!

My kanji dictionary has the way you say the charatcers in currect mandarin chinese and the # for the tone and the meaning and stuff... for exmaple...

書 (Japanese) SHO, ka(ku), write

(Mandarin) shu4 / R writing & P

ior something like that

[gato]

Try watching this Chinese learning show. The transcripts to the show available online on the site (click on "previous lessons").

http://www.cctv.com/program/TravelinChinese_newold/09/index.shtml

Travel in Chinese

Or try these shows produced by Chinese Radio International for beginners:

http://english.cri.cn/chinese/

You might want to use popjisyo to help with characters you don't know:

http://www.popjisyo.com/WebHint/Portal_e.aspx

Here is also a list of Chinese grammar site:

http://www.csulb.edu/~txie/grammar.htm

[flameproof]

Japanese kanji is more simplified then traditional chinese characters, yet not as simplified as the simplified chinese characters,

Kanji uses some simplified characters and some non-simplified ones. Seem to be a mix of both.

If you know Kanji well it will definitely help you getting faster into the Chinese writing system.

For the tones, don't bother. They are not that important when you start. You get them automatically when you get more fluent.

[roddy]

You get them automatically when you get more fluent.

When exactly? I'm still waiting . . .

[HashiriKata]

When exactly? I'm still waiting . . .

For the tones, don't bother. They are not that important when you start. You get them automatically when you get more fluent.

I'd personally reword flameproof's statement as:

For the tones, put some work in, even if they're difficult and don't appear to be that important when you start. With a good foundation from the beginning, the tones will take care of themselves when you get more fluent.

[roddy]

Now that's a statement I can get behind

I think any 'it'll come naturally' theory is at least flawed, if not outright wrong. Yes, it might come naturally, though I'm by no means convinced. But it's surely going to come a hell of a lot quicker and more accurately with some decent study and training. "It'll come naturally" sounds to me like the words of a student who finds it difficult and doesn't want to study it (guilty as charged, your honor) or a teacher who doesn't know how to teach it.

[HashiriKata]

I think any 'it'll come naturally' theory is at least flawed, if not outright wrong.

I agree with you. The tones look after themselves only after they've been properly looked after.

[flameproof]

Tones are really not important if you are well exposed to the language and base your learning mainly on audio (hearing). Just follow what you hear and copy the melody. That way you catch em automatically without ever learning them.

Learning tones for single words is meaningless. The melody of a phrase is more important, and easier to remember.

At least that's my approach and I usually don't have problems making myself understood.

[roddy]

'copy the melody' is not 'automatic' - you're asking people to consciously pay attention to and replicate tonal patterns. Completely different from your original 'don't bother'.

[flameproof]

'copy the melody' is for me an 'automatic' reflex. The same way I would pick up Scottish or Australian.

You just have to be aware that Mandarin has tones and stick to what you hear. Learning tones by itself without context would be impossible for me.

Actually, my best example is always Cantonese. It's tonal, but the locals don't know that. Why learn something that locals don't know?

Similar things apply to grammar. I don't know any English grammar (compare to Chinese that learn English), my English is still WAY WAY better then most of them, even though their grammar knowledge is much higher.

[bomaci]

Actually, my best example is always Cantonese. It's tonal, but the locals don't know that. Why learn something that locals don't know?

I agree. I try to do all my mandarin study by listening and imitating (chorusing). I think it might be a good idea to study the tones after having done a lot of listening and imitating. Because sometimes you may hear a word which you want to look up and you might need to

identify the tones in order to learn it. But when you learn a new word or expression you should first focus on the melody of it and after having gotten that down you could try to analyze what the tones are.

[Quest]

Actually, my best example is always Cantonese. It's tonal, but the locals don't know that.

That is very true. I had spoken it for some 20+ years and only found out a few years ago.

[Lu]

Native speakers can speak their language without knowing the theory behind it. French kids don't know about word's gender until they learn it in school, and German kids don't know what cases are until they learn it, yet such knowledge can come in extremely handy when you learn it as a second language. Same goes for tones. Just the fact that native speakers don't realize they have them, doesn't mean we don't need to learn them. Sure you can learn just by immersion, but I think it might take a lot longer, especially for adults and especially for a language so different from Western languages as Chinese.

To the OP: I'd still be careful with that Kanji dictionary for learning Chinese, it's good enough to pick up the odd character, but for words and phrases and more it's better to get a book for Chinese.

Also, shu1 sometimes means writing, but usually it means book.

Good luck learning!

[bomaci]

Just the fact that native speakers don't realize they have them, doesn't mean we don't need to learn them. Sure you can learn just by immersion, but I think it might take a lot longer, especially for adults and especially for a language so different from Western languages as Chinese.

Actually the only advantage I see with learning about the tones is that you can look up words that you hear more easily. I think the only way to learn tonal languages reliably is to listen and learn words by listening. You don't need immersion to do that. You can watch movies, listen to audiobooks and so on.

[OneEye]

The IME I use requires me to know which tone the word is. Imagine having to scroll through every character pronounced shi (I counted 74) just because you didn't bother to study tones. My Chinese friend at work always tells me the tone of a new word when she teaches me. She writes the character and the pinyin. The tones aren't very hard to learn. A couple hours with the FSI pronunciation and Romanization module and you'll be set, without having to devote much more time at all to the tones, except some tone changes.

[bomaci]

The IME I use requires me to know which tone the word is

Then I think you should consider switching IMEs Even if you know the tone you will have too many choices. In wenlin there are 75 characters pronounced shì. Furthermore it is not about not bothering to studying the tones. It is about remembering the tones as sounds instead of as numbers. When you see the character 中 you should be able to hear in your head how it is pronounced. You shouldn't think of it as z-h-o-n-g-1.

[OneEye]

Then I think you should consider switching IMEs Even if you know the tone you will have too many choices. In wenlin there are 75 characters pronounced shì.

I'm kind of confused. How would not typing the tone narrow it down? Please explain.

Which IME do you recommend?

Furthermore it is not about not bothering to studying the tones. It is about remembering the tones as sounds instead of as numbers.

I never said anything about remembering the tones as numbers. I remember them as sounds. This has nothing to do with studying or not studying the tones.

When you see the character 中 you should be able to hear in your head how it is pronounced. You shouldn't think of it as z-h-o-n-g-1.

Sure, abandon pinyin and just learn each character by sound. Makes a lot of sense.

I don't have to spell it out in my head, if that's what you're getting at. But, 中 is pronounced "zhōng." First tone, high tone, level tone, whatever you want to call it. It helps me to know the pinyin, so I can be sure I'm pronouncing it correctly and in the right tone. Had I learned by sound only, I would have thought 很 was pronounced hén, because the first several times I heard it, it was before a 3rd tone word. I just think that trying to absorb tones over time by listening doesn't make much sense when you can devote just a few hours to studying them and then have a solid grasp and never really have to worry about it again.

My method is working quite well for me. With repetition, the pinyin becomes an afterthought, because I hear the words as I read them. Pinyin is just a means of knowing how to pronounce the word correctly. If you think you're hearing q but you're really hearing ch, you may have serious pronunciation problems, all because you didn't bother to study tones/pinyin/pronunciation (not you personally, but what your argument suggests). I had this exact problem before I learned pinyin and the difference between retroflex and palatal consonants with the FSI Pronunciation & Romanization module (also with x/sh, j/zh, and even z/c) and once I devoted some time to studying them, I can hear and pronounce the differences very clearly without thinking about it.

And it is about not bothering. It doesn't take much time, really. And IMO it will save you trouble in the long run.

[bomaci]

I'm kind of confused. How would not typing the tone narrow it down? Please explain.

Which IME do you recommend?

It is much easier to use an IME which is good at guessing. I.e. where you can type an entire sentence and have it guess right. One of the best IMEs for this is the google one: http://tools.google.com/pinyin/index.html

I typed the following in it "woyonglegugedeshurufalaidazhejuhua" and out came

我用了谷歌的输入法来打这句话.

Sure, abandon pinyin and just learn each character by sound. Makes a lot of sense.

I don't quite understand why it doesn't make sense. Surely it is entirely possible to learn mandarin just by listening up to quite a high level. After you run out of audiocourses there is audiobooks, movies tv-series and a lot of other things you can use. And the 很 problem won't be a problem for very long if you hear it pronounced in several contexts. I don't say that you shouldn't learn pinyin at all but I think it is better to prioritize listening in the beginning to get used to the sounds. I am doing a bit of dabbling in Cantonese right now and I haven't spent any time actively learning the different romanization systems. I first listened and imitated (or "chorused") a lot of sentences. Then I started to look at the romanization. However I only use the romanization to help me learn the sounds, I learn the tones entirely by listening. In my view you can learn tonal languages by listening just as you learn other languages. You just learn to remember the sounds of words.