Need Help Authenticating Possible SEAL SCRIPT BRONZE CHINESE PLATE

[enyerface]

Hi.

I'm just a regular person with absolutely no knowledge of the antique world, much less ancient Chinese artifacts. But I believe I have found such a thing the other day, at an antique shop.

I have taken pictures and posted them on eBay for the antique dealers to comment on, and they have unanimously agreed ~ this piece looks 100% authentic, and suggested I call the Smithsonian for more information.

I called the Smithsonian, and they said, that for legal reasons, they cannot tell me anything about the piece, and suggested I get someone who specializes in this field to appraise it, and then discuss the authentication process.

I heard about people finding extremely rare items, but NEVER thought it could happen to me.

I paid $25.00 for this plate. Amazing.

I also submitted my story to the Antique Roadshow, and am hoping someone will contact me from there.

I am willing to send pictures of this item to anyone who would like to tell me more information about it. It's in EXCELLENT condition, and seems to have been lovingly cared for. It is greened from the years, which I hear makes it all the more valuable.

Thank you so much,

Jen

[skylee]

I have absolutely no knowledge on antiques either. But seeing the title in the first picture ... I think such titles were given posthumously ... and engraving it like this, naming the emperor directly, seems strange to me. But I confess I know nothing about bronzes and very little about chinese history.

[studentyoung]

I heard about people finding extremely rare items, but NEVER thought it could happen to me.

I paid $25.00 for this plate. Amazing.

I am so sorry, but I have to tell you for sure that this is NOT an antique at all.

In fact the characters on the plate are 大汉昭O帝御赐，五虎将马超永中, which roughly means Emperor Zhao in Hang Dynasty bestowed (this plate) to General Ma, Chao who is one of the Five Tiger Generals. (Please kindly note that “O” here is the character I can read on the plate.)

There are some clear mistakes. First, the name “Five Tiger Generals” was not a formal official title in Han Dynasty. Second, the emperor who called General Ma, Chao as one of Five Tiger General was not Emperor “Zhao O”. There was an emperor who called “Zhao” in Han Dynasty, but not “Zhao O”.

If you are still not sure about it, please go and ask more experts in antique field for help.

Thanks!

[Ian_Lee]

What is engraved on the bronze seems to be:

大漢昭烈帝御賜

五虎將馬超永用

I side with Skylee. 昭烈帝 is the title given posthumously. And General Ma even died earlier than Emperor Liu. When Mr. Liu gave his five beloved generals the title of Five Tigers, Mr. Liu dared not proclaim himself Emperor (because the Emperor still existed) and merely labeled himself as the King (漢中王).

[Ian_Lee]

studentyoung:

You mix up 漢昭帝 and 昭烈帝.

昭烈帝 is the title given posthumously to 劉備. When 劉備 conquered 漢中 (present day northern Sichuan and southern Gansu), he got overexcited and proclaimed himself 漢中王 (despite 漢獻帝 was still on the throne) and appointed his five beloved generals as 五虎將.

[studentyoung]

First. The character 昭, 烈、用 are engraved wrongly.

Second. In fact, 昭烈(Zhao Lie) was the royal title Liu, Bei got after his death, so it was impossible for him in his lifetime to know he would be entitled as “昭烈(Zhao Lie)”, less say to use this title to bestow his general.

Thanks!

[cdn_in_bj]

You guys are true scholars, I'm truly impressed

[studentyoung]

When 劉備 conquered 漢中 (present day northern Sichuan and southern Gansu), he got overexcited and proclaimed himself 漢中王 (despite 漢獻帝 was still on the throne) and appointed his five beloved generals as 五虎將.

先是说一下“五虎将”的由来。五虎将这个称号，是在《三国演义》第七十三回里提到的。从小说来看，是写刘备进位汉中王的时候，把手下的五员大将封为“五虎将”，也叫“五虎上将”，也叫“五虎大将”。

《三国志》和《三国志》和裴松之的《注》里，就提到了关羽和张飞为“世虎臣”，而且把关张赵马黄五个人并列，虽然没有明白的说五虎将，关羽则始终为首。

在《三国志平话》里面，就明确地讲到了五虎将，《平话》和《三国演义》有点不太一样的地方，《三国演义》是讲刘备进位汉中王以后，封了五虎将。而在《三国志平话》里是在刘备称王之前，封了五虎将，时间上稍微有点儿不太一样。

http://cache.baidu.com/c?word=%C1%F5%3B%B1%B8%2C%CE%E5%BB%A2%3B%BD%AB&url=http%3A//zhidao%2Ebaidu%2Ecom/question/26177832%2Ehtml&p=8b2a96409d885df84ebd9b7c525f&user=baidu

《三国志平话》

元代话本。宋代汴梁(今河南开封)瓦舍众艺中有“说三分”的，讲的是魏、蜀、吴三国的军事斗争和政治斗争。元人王沂《虎牢关》诗:“君不见三分书里说虎牢，曾使战骨如山高。”这里的“三分书”当指“说三分”的话本，今存《三国志平话》、《三分事略》，其中有虎牢关“三英战吕布”等情节，当是这一类的书。

http://cache.baidu.com/c?word=%C8%FD%B9%FA%3B%D6%BE%3B%C6%BD%BB%B0%2C%D7%F7%D5%DF&url=http%3A//zhidao%2Ebaidu%2Ecom/question/13846081%2Ehtml&p=97759a479c904eac5df1cd681b4a&user=baidu

“三国演义” is a story book, and this “三国志平话” is also an informal story-like summary.

Thanks!

[889]

Unfortunately, the OP's post is two months late.