an interesting problem with 来/没来

[yohosuff]

During chinese class, we came across something that we couldn't figure out:

Look at these two sentences:

我没来中国以前，我不会说汉语。

我来中国以前，我不会说汉语。

Do they mean the same thing? Is there a difference between the two sentences?

I think that they both have the same meaning. Anyone else care to share their opinions?

[insraq]

I'm a native Chinese speaker and I can give you some advice.

The two sentences have exactly the same meaning in ORAL Chinese. And one thing you should know is that GRAMMAR is of little importace in oral Chinese. When we speak, we often make a lot of grammar mistakes. Grammar is only used in written Chinese.

[skylee]

To me, they mean the same thing. I would use just one "我" in either sentence, though.

Also consider these sentences, which mean the same thing -

中国女排大胜古巴女排。

中国女排大败古巴女排。

Other similar examples include 好容易 vs 好不容易 and 好热闹 vs 好不热闹. Also take a look at this.

有一些词语，明明含有意义相反的字眼，意思却能凑到一块儿去。如“入神”等于“出神”，“坐下来”等于“坐下去”，“月亮地下”等于“月亮地上”，“打胜了对方”等于“打败了对方”等等。

还有些说法，一个是肯定的，一个是否定的，但意思也可以捏在一起。如“好喜欢”等于“好不喜欢”（都是“很喜欢”的意思）；“好热闹”等于“好不热闹”（都是“很热闹”的意思）；“好容易”等于“好不容易”（这回却变成都是“很不容易”的意思了）；“差点儿摔倒”等于“差点儿没摔倒”（都是“险些儿摔倒”的意思）；“解放前”等于“未解放前”（都是“新中国成立前”的意思）。为什么会有这种语言现象呢？一句话，这是语言的约定俗成。吕叔湘、朱德熙两位先生在《语法修辞讲话》一书中把它们称为“习惯语”。并说：“有些话虽然用严格的逻辑眼光来分析有点说不过去，但是大家都这样说，都懂得它的意思，听的人和说的人中间毫无隔阂，毫无误会。站在语法的立场上，就不能不承认它是正确的。”（见中国青年出版社1979年版第179页）

[yohosuff]

Yes you're right about only one "我" in each sentence. I forgot about that. So you think they are the same orally, but what about in an intensive reading grammatical sense? Do they have some difference. Can you quote the grammar book on this one to explain exactly how they are different?

[insraq]

中国女排大胜古巴女排。

中国女排大败古巴女排。

I think those two sentences are different from "我没来/来中国以前，我不会说汉语。"

中国女排大胜古巴女排。= Chinese volleyball team beat Cuban volleyball team.

中国女排大败古巴女排。= Chinese volleyball team make Cuban volleyball team lose the game.

大败...=使...大败

This is called 使动用法, which used often in Old Chinese (文言文)

For example, 公子从车骑＝公子使车骑跟从（see 《史记·魏公子列传》）

"我没来/来中国以前，我不会说汉语。" is 约定俗成

"中国女排大胜古巴女排。中国女排大败古巴女排。" is 使动用法

They are different.

I'm a Chinese senior high student, and that's what we learn in Chinese class.

If want to know more about it, contact me. My MSN is insraq@msn.com

[Ian_Lee]

我没来中国以前，我不会说汉语。

Even though the two clauses are negative, the sentence is still negative. It is just like when African Americans use double negative in a sentence, it is still negative in meaning.

[jiehunzheng]

“don‘t you go nowhere” is from MJ's song "The lady in my life". So it equals to "don‘t you go anywhere". We don't want our lovers to leave us. This is reasonable. Thanks for Ian_Lee's information.

[HashiriKata]

In the original examples above, both single- and double-negative make the sentence negative. I also discovered recently that a negative with 非 can make the sentence more positive (instead of negating it), and this can be difficult for learners who are not used to it:

那是你们非让我去的： （That was because） you insisted that I went.

不叫他去，他非要去！ : We asked him not to go but he's determined to.

她非让我陪她去买东西 : She insited that I accompany her shopping.

[skylee]

HK, in your examples in #8, in fact "不可" has been omitted. Consider - 非让我去不可; 他非要去不可; 非让我陪她去买东西不可.

I think you can find something like this in English in "as far as xx (is concerned)".

[HashiriKata]

Thanks skylee! I know that 不可 is understood in those examples; and more often than not, sentences of this kind tend to occur without 不可, which makes it difficult for unsuspecting learners, and it is therefore worth pointing out!

[trien27]

我没来中国以前，我不会说汉语。= Before I haven't been to China, I don't know Chinese.

我来中国以前，我不会说汉语。= Before I came to China, I don't know Chinese.

Before I haven't been to China, in a sense would mean "Before I ever stepped foot in China". So the predicate in sentence 1, would equal the predicate in sentence two (Before I came to China) in meaning.

[djwebb2004]

我没来中国以前，我不会说汉语。= Before I haven't been to China, I don't know Chinese.

我来中国以前，我不会说汉语。= Before I came to China, I don't know Chinese.

But "Before I haven't been to China, I don't know Chinese." is illogical. Translating it that way into English does not solve the problem.

In reality, the first of these two sentences is incorrect, but because most Chinese people are poorly educated, you will hear it frequently. It occupies, as someone said, the same "slot" in Chinese as the double negative in English.

Chinese is a generally badly spoken and badly written language. People but "yijing" into sentences where there is no meaning of "already", and put "ye" into sentences where there is no "also" meaning. I think Chinese people just don't think about what they are saying. Some foreigners speak Chinese better than the average Chinese simply because we are more used to logica l thinking than the Chinese!

[Lu]

Perhaps 已經 is just not exactely the same as 'already', and it is not that Chinese is a badly spoken/written language, but that you are misunderstanding it? Like in 已壞, that does not mean 'already broken'. The 已 here is added for other reasons, that I can sort of understand but not explain. Same in many other cases, when you translate a sentence with 已經 or 也 in it to English, you can often leave it out, but that does not mean it should also be left out in Chinese.

[HashiriKata]

Chinese is a generally badly spoken and badly written language. People but "yijing" into sentences where there is no meaning of "already", and put "ye" into sentences where there is no "also" meaning. I think Chinese people just don't think about what they are saying. Some foreigners speak Chinese better than the average Chinese simply because we are more used to logica l thinking than the Chinese!

Somewhere's given me the impression that you're a graduate in Chinese. It must have been my mistake!

[djwebb2004]

Lu and HashiriKata: it is awkward to discuss something without examples, because you don't know what I am talking about - as I haven't clarified with examples - and so the issue becomes open-ended. There are examples you can find of sentences where the words yijing and ye play no grammatical role, or any role at all, but just seem to help the rhythm of the sentence maybe? It will not be top of my list, but I know a few documents I have where I spotted a lot of "filler" words and nonsensical lexical items. If I dig them out, then you will know what I mean and be able to critique it on the basis of whether I have misunderstood the sentences or not. I suppose it was unfair of me to highlight something and then give no examples...

[L-F-J]

to me, it seems "before i hadnt come to china" in english or chinese makes no sense. there cant be a before you hadnt come to china. if so, then what is it considered? you hadnt come yet and before that you hadnt not come?

i think only the second one makes sense, of course dropping one of the 我. but the first one sounds ridiculous to me. you'd have to change it to "when i still hadn't come to china". if you wanted to say "before" then you'd have to say "before i came to china" which is the meaning of the second sentence.

and the english in both sentences doesnt work anyway. "before i havent been to china" makes no sense. and "before i came to china, i dont know chinese" should be "before i came to china, i didnt know chinese"- to stay in the same tense (past). thats the only way the english works and its also the correct chinese sentence too.

the first one doesnt make sense in english or chinese.

[DarkerBlue]

）；“解放前”等于“未解放前”（都是“新中国成立前”的意思）。为什么会有这种语言现象呢？一句话，这是语言的约定俗成。吕叔湘、朱德熙两位先生在《语法修辞讲话》一书中把它们称为“习惯语”。

really?!

I can accept "好不热闹""好容易"or"差点儿没摔倒",

but I never use and feel sick at the structure "没有...以前".

[文言訓開班]

I find this thread really intresting. It sounds to me like the ambiguity comes from 以前. Would the sentences be better parced as:

我没来中国以前, 我(就)不会说中文

我来中国, 以前我不会说中文

so that in the first sentence, 以前 is the end of one long time phrase, "我没来中国", and in the second sentence, 以前 serves as the complete time phrase for being able to speak Chinese (given that 我来过中国)?

I mean it seems 以前 has two distinct meanings here - in the first sentence, it's just a general term for the past, like saying "I'd never done that before" in English (which if you think about it is redundant. So, it means the past not necessarily in the context of whatever you just did). In the second sentence, 以前 seems to mean specifically 来过中国之前.

[Altair]

FYI, formal French and at least some dialects of Spanish have just the same type of construction. It seems that speakers in these languages conflate two different constructions: "before coming to China" and "having not (yet) come to China" into something like "before having not yet come to China." Although this is not possible in English, it is possible in Chinese, some varieties of Spanish, and in elegant French. Such constructions do not indicate that the speakers are speaking in a sloppy or illogical fashion. It just illustrates that languages are quite complex.

[Lu]

There are examples you can find of sentences where the words yijing and ye play no grammatical role, or any role at all, but just seem to help the rhythm of the sentence maybe?

Sometimes yijing and ye are used without meaning already or also in the sentence, I fully agree. But that doesn't mean they have no function. Like you say, they help the rhythm of the sentence, they help it sound right. That is also a valid function for a word, imho.

An example that comes to mind is 已壞, which does not mean 'already broken' but just 'broken', so you might say the 已 has no function here. Yet 壞 on its own wouldn't work either, it would be confusing: does it mean bad? bad how? Yi is just put in to make it sound right, and to make it less confusing.