Chinese roots in other languages

[eric]

It has come to my attention that Mandarin is a failry young dialect perhaps. Cantonese might have been the more prevalent dialect long ago right?

With this in mind, when noting the similarities between other languages (spoken) and Chinese, might it be safe to assume that the words that don't quite match up with Mandarin are more similar to their cantonese roots? I don't know Cantonese so I can't say.. but when I look at how some korean words sound, particularly ones that end in consonants, I tend to think that Korean is more similar to Cantonese than Mandarin. This might explain why the sounds are not even similar to Mandarin sometimes right?

[Lu Yi Si]

Eric,

I think you're guessing, I don't know but perhaps someone with real knowledge of Chinese historical lingusics could enlighten us.

However what I do know is, there are a few Chinese words in Thai, which is basically a khmer(sp?) language and has no real relation to Chinese. For example say 'bu yao' (don't want) to a street hawker in Thailand and they may go away! There are a few other examples (that I have forgotten). Maybe a Cantonese speaker could tell me whether this word or phrase is common to both Cantonese and Mandarin?

[nnt]

Lu Yi Si:

You just forget that Thai peoples (including Tay in Vietnam and Laotians in Laos) came from Yunnan around the 12th-13th century, so it's no surprise that some words may be borrowed from Chinese.

[Quest]

eric, its often the case.

I think 三国志 is "sahm gook chi" in Korean?

it is "sahm gwok dzi" in Cantonese, and "san guo zhi" in Mandarin.

[geek_frappa]

where can i find old recordings of Chinese speakers?

where can i find the OLDEST of these recordings???

[eric]

Quest: perfect example!

I think similar things occur in Japanese too, but I have even less knowledge of that. Anyway, this is all the more reason for me to learn Cantonese now hehe.

So since Korea is in the north, does that mean that Chinese people in the north also spoke Cantonese long ago? Makes me wonder why Mandarin was adopted as the standard.

[39degN]

從朝鮮的歷史來看，西元前108年，漢武帝將衛氏的朝鮮（由燕國的亡命者衛滿所建）滅掉，並設置樂浪等四個郡。西元前57年新羅建國，前37年高句麗建國，前18年百濟建國，當時漢字傳入朝鮮半島，也是儒學思想傳入的時期。高句麗在小獸林王2年（372年）設立大學。百濟也在近肖古王在位（346～375年）時設置博士。新羅在統一三國後，於神文王2年（682年）創立國學，之後派遣留唐學生，獎勵學問。西元七世紀末，新羅神文王（在位681-692）時代的薛聰發明了古代的朝鮮文字「吏讀」，這是漢字以新羅語音標表記，漢文以新羅語判讀的方法。吏讀的創始，使得會解讀中國九經的朝鮮學者也出現了。

│ 唐 │ 开耀 │ 681 │ 682 │

─────────────────────

│ 唐 │ 永淳 │ 682 │ 683 │

─────────────────────

│ 唐 │ 弘道 │ 683 │ 684 │

─────────────────────

│ 唐 │ 嗣圣 │ 684 │ 704 │

seems chinese characters were introduced into korea doring the han and tang dynasties, and han and tang's capitals both were 长安(chang2 an1),so i daresay their official language should be in shaanxi (陕西)accent, then how come they could had a contanese accent? the same suits to japanese.

[39degN]

in addition

约七十万年前：朝鲜半岛开始有人类定居。　　　　　　　　　　　　　

公元前2333年：传说中的檀君王俭建立古朝鲜国。　　　　　　　　　　　

约3000年前：殷商贵族箕子率众来到朝鲜半岛，建立朝鲜半岛历史上的第一个 信史记载王朝“箕子朝鲜”。 　　　　　　　　　　　

公元前194年：燕国人卫满推翻箕子朝鲜，建立卫氏朝鲜。这是历史上第二个王朝。

公元前108年后：汉武帝吞并卫氏朝鲜，设立了乐浪、带方、真蕃、临屯四郡史称汉四郡，统治着朝鲜间岛中北部。而朝鲜半岛的南部出现了以“三韩”族－－马韩、辰韩、弁韩为中心的辰国。此外还存在着伽　等小国。　　　　

公元前100年左右：朝鲜半岛上形成了高句丽（公元前37－公元668）、百济（公元前18－公元660）、新罗（公元前57－公元935）三国鼎立的局面。　

We can see the ancient Korea had affected by 商 and 燕’s culture, let’s check商 and 燕’s border:

殷商末年，纣王的叔父叫箕子，为纣王时著名贤臣，官至太师。他辅佐商纣王。但商纣王暴虐无道，拒谏饰非，剖比干，逐微子。箕子屡谏不听，终于被囚。周武王灭商，把箕子从牢狱中释放出来。箕子不能承受殷商被灭的烦恼，就偷偷回到自己的封地箕（箕侯国的封地原在河南，后逐渐北移，这与殷商的国势衰弱以至灭亡的形势有关），并进而向东逃到以前就与箕侯国有联系的古朝鲜侯国。

古朝鲜国居于燕侯国（今河北北部，辽宁西部一带）的东面，原来也是我国东方九夷中的一支。周武王见箕子逃到古朝鲜，就封箕子于朝鲜，称箕氏朝鲜。于是，箕子一方面是箕侯，臣属于燕；一方面又是古朝鲜国王。他带去的商朝的官民奴隶，大约有5000多人，后来都融合到古朝鲜族内，成为古朝鲜族的一部分。约于西周末春秋初，箕氏朝鲜的政治中心已由辽西迁往辽东，占有辽河以东以及朝鲜半岛的广大地区。从此，不再臣属于燕了。

箕子东走，带去大批的手工业奴隶，“诗书礼乐，医药卜筮”（《海东绎史》“百工之具皆备”，都由箕子带入朝鲜。箕子用先进的奴隶制改造落后的氏族制，“教其民以礼义，田蚕织作”，传布先进生产方式，以诗书礼乐教化当地人民。箕子带去的中原文明，大大改变了当地风俗。箕子教化，数百年相沿不衰，并影响辽东以后数千年的习俗。春秋末年，孔子慨叹礼崩乐坏，大道不行，尚欲“乘桴筏而适东夷，以其国有仁贤能之化，可以行道也”。（《汉书•地理志下》）

稍后到燕昭王时,燕国强盛,在乐毅伐齐的第二年,燕将秦开又北攻东胡,拓地千余里,新置上谷、渔阳、右北平、辽西、辽东五郡。此时燕国的疆界除覆盖今北京、天津和河北北部外,还延伸到了山东北部、山西北部、辽宁大部、内蒙古东南部以及朝鲜半岛等广大地区。

obviously the Korea historically had a north china's affection, or just part of north the middle kingdom, I cant see any relationship with 越 culture.

[Quest]

no 39degN, we are talking about language not culture. Northern China did not speak Mandarin until, some say, 500 or so years ago.

In fact eric, I don't think it was necessarily Cantonese that had the influence over Korea. It was ancient Chinese, which sounded closer to present day southern dialects. And it makes sense that the south preserved more of the ancient characteristics of Chinese if you would just look into Chinese history starting with 南宋。

Chinese definitely had ending consonants p-t-k-b etc which Mandarin had lost. That also led to the change of vowels of some words.

[geek_frappa]

It was ancient Chinese, which sounded closer to present day southern dialects.

yes. the migration of Chinese all over the world has in some ways helped preserve parts of the ancient language, so it is not a surprise that the southern Chinese who migrated away from the mainland during many revolutions (industrial, chinese, cultural, etc.)...

[eric]

I noticed that some of the old poems in Chinese sound better in Cantonese too

[39degN]

no 39degN, we are talking about language not culture. Northern China did not speak Mandarin until, some say, 500 or so years ago.

In fact eric, I don't think it was necessarily Cantonese that had the influence over Korea. It was ancient Chinese, which sounded closer to present day southern dialects. And it makes sense that the south preserved more of the ancient characteristics of Chinese if you would just look into Chinese history starting with 南宋。

Chinese definitely had ending consonants p-t-k-b etc which Mandarin had lost. That also led to the change of vowels of some words.

ok, i temporarily agree with you unless i found new evidences. i have also read a taiwanese scholars paper, he thought that the sourth dialets are more similar with the ancient chinese than mandarin.

but actually i think in ancient china, the accent should be more various aspects there(so how could you know what's the standard for ancient chinese?). The north and the south couldn't be in the same accent. Since accents established based on lacking of communication, as you know, according to ancient's transportation conditions, there couldn't be more communicating there.

[39degN]

I noticed that some of the old poems in Chinese sound better in Cantonese too

oh,really then how come i think they sound better in mandarin? i think sometimes changing ourselve's perspective is very important.

[eric]

Well the main reason I'm willing to come to this conclusion is that I heard:

1) mandarin is new (500 yrs old?)

2) cantonese is spoken by more people, and was to an even greater degree in the past

3) other languages with chinese roots have consonants at the ends of words and do in fact sound much more like modern day cantonese than Mandarin.

I know it's not the best argument, but it's clear that at least some roots do come from other dialects right? So even if it was not unified because of all of the different dialects, I tend to think that the places they sound like Mandarin are probably coincidences. That is, they are probably words that sound similar in the dialects of Chinese too.

About the poems:

I guess it's totally subjective The only one I can think of right now is the famous one by xiang1 yu4?

(which wasn't all that long ago, maybe the begining of the Han dynasty right?)

please forgive the errors

li4 ba2 shan1 xi1, qi4 gai4 shi4

shi2 bu4 li4 xi1, zhui1 bu4 shi4

zhui1 bu4 shi4 xi1, ke3 nai4 he2

yu2 xi1 yu2 xi1, nai3 ruo4 he2

I'm not sure if i forgot a line, and indeed the poem/song sounds good in mandarin, but when I heard it spoken in Cantonese it sounded softer and more of the words rhymed...

[39degN]

li4 ba2 shan1 xi1, qi4 gai4 shi4

shi2 bu4 li4 xi1, zhui1 bu4 shi4

zhui1 bu4 shi4 xi1, ke3 nai4 he2

yu2 xi1 yu2 xi1, nai3 ruo4 he2

I'm not sure if i forgot a line, and indeed the poem/song sounds good in mandarin, but when I heard it spoken in Cantonese it sounded softer and more of the words rhymed...

it may be, but dont forget that, boy, 项羽 is 西楚霸王, and 楚 is nearby today's 湖北, 楚、越、吴语are both south dialects.

And here we can find something could be useful right now, as you know, in史记 or 汉书, we call a 越王as 句(勾)践, but according to his sword discovered in 1960s, the words chiseled on the sword are: 越王鸠浅(潜)自作用鐱,(see the pic) it can prove something, probably the 史记's auther may never know the 越王name's real characters(yeah, like eveyone else, lacking of international communications, oops, sure he wrote it after that so many years), but just wrote it by yue people's pronunciation in the legend, so the 鸠 became 勾, it certainly prove that they have different accents.

1) mandarin is new (500 yrs old?)

who has proven that? meanwhile, never confuse an official language's age with a language's age, they are totally different.

2) cantonese is spoken by more people, and was to an even greater degree in the past

the same as the last one. Source pls!

3) other languages with chinese roots have consonants at the ends of words and do in fact sound much more like modern day cantonese than Mandarin.

They are not Chinese, boy!

[39degN]

BTW, the poem has no problem, but the poet's name is not correct. SB xiang4 yu3, not xiang1 yu4.

also, if you heard that sounds more softer is not a right feeling, xiang yu 是豪放派诗人, this poem has no soft in it, only has heroism, despair and sadness.

[ala]

obviously the Korea historically had a north china's affection, or just part of north the middle kingdom, I cant see any relationship with 越 culture.

There have been several migrations from the north to the south during Chinese history. Also actually, 吴越 (region in Jiangsu 吴 and Zhejiang 越) has been believed to have brought rice agriculture to the Korean peninsula. There are a lot of artifacts similar to 吴越 found in Korea. But it is unlikely that any mass migration took place from 吴越 to Korea.

Sino-Korean is closer to Cantonese; and Sino-Japanese is closer to 闽 Min (originally Sino-Japanese was extremely close to 吴 Wu, but 吴 later underwent dramatic changes itself due to Mandarin influence while Min was more sheltered). Mandarin was the result of northern non-Chinese ruling tribes learning Chinese and doing a poor job in learning the proper pronounciations, this simplified pidgin pronounciation eventually became adopted by the northern Chinese as well by the 12-13th century. There are endless papers regarding this in Chinese, and this is pretty much the consensus.

[eric]

ala, that's really cool and it seems to make a lot of sense.

36degN:

i dont mean Korean came from Chinese directly, or that Korean people came from Chinese people, just that the Korean language was heavily influenced by Chinese.

And don't you think the sadness of the poem is captured when the overall sound is softer or smoother (due to better rhyming maybe). In mandarin the poem sounds like it's dictating something, the sound is kind of choppy with all those xi1's.. they don't sound too emphasized in mandarin (xi1 is a very poignant sound right?)

it's still up to you though

[39degN]

ala

Mandarin was the result of northern non-Chinese ruling tribes learning Chinese and doing a poor job in learning the proper pronounciations, this simplified pidgin pronounciation eventually became adopted by the northern Chinese as well by the 12-13th century. There are endless papers regarding this in Chinese, and this is pretty much the consensus.

then where the origninal north han chinese went? i mean the 燕? do you mean they had been influenced by 洋鬼子, and speaking chinese just like foreign accent? they couldnt do a good job at chinese, let's see it from examples, just like the 鸠, assume they couldnt pronounce it, so became jiu1, then how come they can pronounce gou1 勾? R L N are the same thing in some south dialects, and northern can identify them, the cause is northern tongues are awkward? i know there are lots of papers talking about it, but almost all wroten by south chinese with their perspictive, i mean no racism or regionism, but just giving a different voice. also, if your evidences give a source would be appreciated.

[39degN]

ok, eric, lets agree to disagree, i just want to mention one point BTW, the poem wroten in 楚语