Chinese roots in other languages

[nnt]

About relationship between Classical Chinese, spoken Chinese and Vietnamese, you can see this link:

http://www.cjvlang.com/Writing/writsys/writviet.html

For much of Vietnam's history the official written language was Classical Chinese, using, of course, Chinese characters. Chinese became established as the dominant cultural medium during the millennium (111 B.C. - 938 A.D.) when Vietnam was under direct Chinese rule. Even after Vietnam gained its independence, Classical Chinese continued in use among the literati. In fact, the characters were in official use right up until the 20th century. It was only the abolition of the Chinese-style official exams in 1918 that finally sounded their death knell.

During the time it was the official language, Chinese had a massive influence on the Vietnamese language and literature. Even today, a huge proportion of the modern vocabulary has its origins in Chinese.

more particularly:

1. Chinese loanwords (Sino-Vietnamese): For Vietnamese words borrowed from Chinese, chu nom used the original Chinese character without change. For example:

The word sơn meaning 'mountain' was written 山 (modern Chinese shan1).

The word hỏa meaning 'fire' was written 火 (modern Chinese huo3).

The word vị meaning 'flavour' was written 味 (modern Chinese wei4).

2. Naturalised Chinese words: Some very old borrowings from Chinese came to be considered naturalised Vietnamese words. These words were generally represented by the original Chinese character, but in order to distinguish them from newer Chinese loanwords sometimes a mark was added.

The word for 'smell, flavour', mùi , was borrowed earlier than and had come to be regarded as a naturalised Vietnamese word. It was written 味 or 味'. (The mark on the top right indicated that this was a 'naturalised' word to be read mùi, not vị .)

I think was is common to Korean, Japanese and Vietnamese pronunciations of Classical Chinese characters could be the guan hua 官话 (officials' language) of the Tang and Northern Sung dynasties.

Of course, from that time, each "version" of Classical Chinese pronunciations has had its own evolution in its regions and countries.

[39degN]

I think was is common to Korean, Japanese and Vietnamese pronunciations of Classical Chinese characters could be the guan hua 官话 (officials' language) of the Tang and Northern Sung dynasties.

Of course, from that time, each "version" of Classical Chinese pronunciations has had its own evolution in its regions and countries.

50% agree, but don't you think there could have been other possibilities?

1.they just adopt Chinese writing system, but not the pronunciation system. e.g. Vietnam using Latin alphabets right now, could you say their some vocabularies adopt from French are pronounced totally like French?

2.Korean, Japanese and Vietnamese 汉字 have something in common because their native languages have something in common, none of chinese business(without letter R or some stuff, I m not really good at this) , just imagine that, Indian, Pakistani, and other south Asian speaking english with similar accents, assume they are not keeping in touch anymore each other and with british, well after 1000 years, we found that their English accent have something in common, so we can get a conclusion that ancient british accent was just like theirs?

[Quest]

39degN, the conclusion was drawn not only by looking at KJV but also by looking at Chinese dialects within China. No one knows for sure what it was like in the past, but the chance for Chinese to have had p t k endings is ever greater than the otherwise. Or at least, should we say the influential Chinese language at that time was not a mandarin like language. It is not that hard to accept, if you could imagine how Jin, Mongols, Manchus might have influenced the northern accents and pronunciations.

But you are correct that no dialect is older than the others. All dialects evolved under different conditions.

[39degN]

39degN, the conclusion was drawn not only by looking at KJV but also by looking at Chinese dialects within China. No one knows for sure what it was like in the past, but the chance for Chinese to have had p t k endings is ever greater than the otherwise. Or at least, should we say the influential Chinese language at that time was not a mandarin like language. It is not that hard to accept, if you could imagine how Jin, Mongols, Manchus might have influenced the northern accents and pronunciations.

But you are correct that no dialect is older than the others. All dialects evolved under different conditions.

yeah, quest, that's a point from an impersonal perspective.

(but does british have influenced HKers cantonese accent? or the older one, Macao people's accent have been influenced by Portuguese? haha, just kidding )

and it could been have p t k endings there, since ever language's evolution is a simplified progress, just like the ancient english had some complex endings.

[nnt]

1.they just adopt Chinese writing system' date=' but not the pronunciation system. e.g. Vietnam using Latin alphabets right now, could you say their some vocabularies adopt from French are pronounced totally like French?

[/quote']

I think that initially, they adopted the script and the pronunciation (although with some foreign accent, but certainly without the mandarin's 儿 ). For Classical Chinese was, at least in Vietnam and Korea, the official language, not the common people's language.

If we compare with French, we should not compare with Vietnamese words borrowed from French language, but to French spoken and written by the Vietnamese elite under the French colonization: it was French with an accent but with correct (even academic) French grammar. The same as English for the Indian elite under British rule.

2.Korean' date=' Japanese and Vietnamese 汉字 have something in common because their native languages have something in common,[/quote']

Korean and Vietnamese native languages have nothing in common ,the same for Japanese and Vietnamese native languages (as for comparing Korean and Japanese, I'm not qualified to do so). Korean, Japanese and Vietnamese 汉字 is the only linguistic common point, so if there are similarities in the pronunciation of some characters, it should be due to their common origin, i.e. to their original pronunciation in guan hua

[ala]

中国では、3世紀、魏、呉、蜀の三国時代、呉の国は江南にあって、建業（今の南京）を首都として江南一帯を統治しており、この地方一帯を「呉」の地と呼んでいた。その後の南北朝時代に入っても、南朝は晋、宋、斉といずれも建康（建業を改名）を首都として漢文化を伝えていた。

　日本に最初に漢字を伝えたのは、百済であるが、百済は朝鮮半島の南西部の黄海に面しており、中国との交流は、もっぱら当時の文化の中心であった南朝と盛んに行っており、百済の漢字音も、この地域の言語「呉音」をもとにしていた。日本には、6世紀に百済から仏教が伝来したが、当然漢訳の教典も「呉音」によって読み下していた。

　しかしながら、7，8世紀に入ると、北方の五胡十六国の内鮮卑族から出た北朝（北魏、北周）が、隋ついで唐を建国して中国を統一したため、本来の漢民族は南に追いやられてしまった。北朝の字音は、南朝の「呉音」に対し、「漢音」と名づけられる。

　隋、唐による中国統一後は、日本も、統一王朝である隋、唐に、多くの留学生や留学僧を遣隋使や遣唐使として送り、大唐の文化を受け入れようになり、793年、桓武天皇は遣唐使らの進言を入れて、今までの呉音を改め、北方の漢音を正式の字音とするように勅命を下した。それ以来、今日まで漢文はもとより、公式の用語は漢音で読まれることになった。しかし、当時、社会的に力のあった僧侶達は呉音に慣れ親しんでいたため漢音の使用に反発し、漢音は完全に呉音に取って替わることができなかった。このため、日常生活に定着している字音や、寺院などでは、「呉音」が生き続けて来たのである。

Japanese has two main sets of Sino-Japanese pronounciations: 呉音 from 吴国 in 三国时代 and 漢音 from 唐朝 (today 漢音 is the most productive in modern Japanese). There is also 宋音 (also mistermed 唐音) which came later and refers to Mandarin pronounciations from the 宋 dynasty onwards.

The thing is that even though Japanese 漢音 pronounciations were taken from the north, a comparison between 漢音 and today's Mandarin reveals that Japanese 漢音 (adopted from the north) is closer to today's Wu and Min dialects than Mandarin. Today's Wu dialects 吴方言 show little resemblance to Japanese 呉音 taken from the 江南 area during the 3rd century, but are far more similar to Japanese 漢音, this is one suggestion of many that northern Chinese migrated to 江南 during and after the Tang; and that modern northern Mandarin experienced a lot of changes during 辽、金、元 dynasties while the Chinese spoken in 江南 and further south were preserved better (and are now called 吴、闽、粤、湘方言).

[hparade]

It was ancient Chinese, which sounded closer to present day southern dialects. And it makes sense that the south preserved more of the ancient characteristics of Chinese if you would just look into Chinese history starting with 南宋。

Chinese definitely had ending consonants p-t-k-b etc which Mandarin had lost. That also led to the change of vowels of some words.

yes, it's the southern dialects, and cantonese is only one of them, others include like minnan, wu, minbei etc

[shibo77]

I really enjoyed reading this thread! Some were enlightening, and some were misleading.

Yes Cantonese is about/at least 2000 years old, with little change; while Mandarin is less than/at most 800 years old. Reconstruction of the pronounciation of Classical Chinese have begun since the 1920s. Mostly done by European scholars. Nowadays, most of the pronounciation for Classical Chinese of the various dynasties have been reconstructed. I only studied about the Classical Chinese of the 東周 Eastern Zhou period. So, that is all I know. Mandarin was very flexible, always changing. The Mandarin that is spoken now can trace its roots to the Yuan Dynasty. When the Mongols conqueored China, they set up one of their capitals at Beijing, and they called it 大都Da4 Du1 (Big Capital), after about 50 years into the Mongol occupation, the Mongols became increasingly integrated into Chinese society. People wore Chinese clothing, Mongols built Chinese houses, ate Chinese food, all this despite the caste system instituted then. During this time, a common language was needed, because like the previous dynasties, people from all over China, speaking in a variety of "dialects" which are so different from each other that they could be considered different languages. After these scholars have passed the Civil Service Examinations, they arrive in the capital, Xian, Luoyang, Beijing..., whichever dynasty. To communicate between each person. A special dialect 官話Guan1 Hua4 was formed with a great amount of influence from the dialect of the capital area. Just as today, Beijing dialect plays a great influence on "standard" Mandarin in the People's Republic. Here is a great example, people from Sichuan said "wohr4", people from Guangdong said "ngo5", people from Hunan said "wok3", when these people arrived in Beijing, the capital, they took the "最小公倍数 least common denominator", only in this case, not a 数number, but a 声mora. "wohr4", "ngo5", "wok3" became 我"wo3"

This is why in "modern" Mandarin, words are so short and simple, and crisp. Cantonese had much less change because there weren't many development in Guangdong, I can't think of any dynastic capitals in Guangdong. This is why Cantonese is less "crisp", more "fluid", as I would like to describe it. Like many European languages, the syllables are stretched, whereas when a Mandarin singer sings, one has to artificially stretch the syllables to be in tune with the song. Probably why Cantonese songs sound better. This is all due to the fact that Mandarin is the result of chopping and slicing off unwanted morae, and leaving the least common denominator from the various dialects of China intact. To a Chinese from the Zhou dynasty, modern Mandarin would sound very much crippled.

Reconstruction of Classical Chinese is usually done through careful and painful study of the poems and lyrics from the various dynasties. Also careful study of the dialect surrounding the capital area. If you studied Sui/Tang pronounciation, you might want to go live with a farmer in Shaaxi for awhile and analyse their pronounciation. The more undeveloped area it is, the better it would be, because there will have been very little change since the Sui/Tang dynasty. This method is applied to later, post 500 CE pronounciation, but for earlier dyansties, such as Han or Zhou, one simply have to lock oneself up in a room and compare dialects. Of course, there is no way to be sure if the reconstructed pronounciation is the correct one, unless we resurrect 赢政 Ying Zheng... It is just as the pronounciation of Classical Latin from a few hundred years left or right of the Augustan age. Mostly based on the dialogues and orations of Cicero. Of course, Classical Chinese has a great advantage in that the grammar and writing and vocabulary have largely remained static since the Qin/Han dynasty. Whereas Latin have evolved greatly into separate languages. But anyways, I am babbling on, here is an example:

Chinese "law"

法律 hanzi

Modern Mandarin

/fa3-lü4/ 法律

Modern Cantonese

/fat8-loet9/ 法律

Reconstructed 唐:長安(西安)Tang Standard (Capital dialect, modern day Xi'an)

/pjop lwit/ 法律

Reconstructed 東周:成周(洛阳)Eastern Zhou Standard (Capital dialect, modern day Luoyang)

/paap-luet/ "法律" (大篆) (written in Da4 Zhuan4 "Great Seal" script)

Modern Vietnamese

/fap-luat/ pháp luật Hán Việt phép luật Chữ Nôm

Modern Korean

/beop-ryul/　　　법률 hangeul 法律 hanja

Modern Japanese

/hou-ritsu/　　ほうりつ hiragana　法律 kanji

I hope this helped!

- Shibo

[seanp]

Also the Vietnamese pronounciation:

pháp (fáp) luật

[shibo77]

I really need to learn some Vietnamese.... Actually I need to learn alot of things... Why am I wasting my time here.....

- Shibo

[nnt]

I really need to learn some Vietnamese

You needn't... You just have to learn Vietnamese "Pinyin" (Hán Việt) to read Chinese texts Vietnamese way.

Reconstructed 東周:成周(洛阳)Eastern Zhou Standard (Capital dialect' date=' modern day Luoyang)

/paap-luet/ "法律" (大篆) (written in Da4 Zhuan4 "Great Seal" script)

[/quote']

It seems to me that the Vietnamese pronunciation of 法律 (pháp luật with ph=f) is closest to the "original"...

法 pháp is Hán Việt (Vietnamese Pinyin)

法 phép is Vietnamese (chữ nôm)

[39degN]

To communicate between each person. A special dialect 官話Guan1 Hua4 was formed with a great amount of influence from the dialect of the capital area. Just as today, Beijing dialect plays a great influence on "standard" Mandarin in the People's Republic. Here is a great example, people from Sichuan said "wohr4", people from Guangdong said "ngo5", people from Hunan said "wok3", when these people arrived in Beijing, the capital, they took the "最小公倍数 least common denominator", only in this case, not a 数number, but a 声mora. "wohr4", "ngo5", "wok3" became 我"wo3"

come on! then, where were the beijing/north local ppl? you mean they all die? or up to ppl from everywhere to change their accent? pls notice this, there were no broadcast and TV stations in ancient, and if they want to arrive capital, they have to spend several months, your 最小公倍数 theory makes nobody can speak "standard" official language(if you choose one as standard,at least the population speak it speaking the absolutly "standard"language), then why not choose a dialect as a standard, and others have to learn it, since ppl in everywhere has thier own dialects, inevitably, accent generated. it's a result, but you cant say the result affected the official language itself.

[39degN]

The more undeveloped area it is, the better it would be, because there will have been very little change since the Sui/Tang dynasty. This method is applied to later, post 500 CE pronounciation, but for earlier dyansties, such as Han or Zhou, one simply have to lock oneself up in a room and compare dialects.

you mean the natural selections might never happened in no man's islands?

[39degN]

中国では、3世紀、魏、呉、蜀の三国時代、呉の国は江南にあって、建業（今の南京）を首都として江南一帯を統治しており、この地方一帯を「呉」の地と呼んでいた。その後の南北朝時代に入っても、南朝は晋、宋、斉といずれも建康（建業を改名）を首都として漢文化を伝えていた。

　日本に最初に漢字を伝えたのは、百済であるが、百済は朝鮮半島の南西部の黄海に面しており、中国との交流は、もっぱら当時の文化の中心であった南朝と盛んに行っており、百済の漢字音も、この地域の言語「呉音」をもとにしていた。日本には、6世紀に百済から仏教が伝来したが、当然漢訳の教典も「呉音」によって読み下していた。

　しかしながら、7，8世紀に入ると、北方の五胡十六国の内鮮卑族から出た北朝（北魏、北周）が、隋ついで唐を建国して中国を統一したため、本来の漢民族は南に追いやられてしまった。北朝の字音は、南朝の「呉音」に対し、「漢音」と名づけられる。

　隋、唐による中国統一後は、日本も、統一王朝である隋、唐に、多くの留学生や留学僧を遣隋使や遣唐使として送り、大唐の文化を受け入れようになり、793年、桓武天皇は遣唐使らの進言を入れて、今までの呉音を改め、北方の漢音を正式の字音とするように勅命を下した。それ以来、今日まで漢文はもとより、公式の用語は漢音で読まれることになった。しかし、当時、社会的に力のあった僧侶達は呉音に慣れ親しんでいたため漢音の使用に反発し、漢音は完全に呉音に取って替わることができなかった。このため、日常生活に定着している字音や、寺院などでは、「呉音」が生き続けて来たのである。

that explains, ala!

i dont know any japanese, but according to the chinse characters in it, and the net translater's rerult, they adopted characters from 百済 in the first place, as everyone knows, 百済 is in korea, that's why they have something in common.

[39degN]

I think that initially, they adopted the script and the pronunciation (although with some foreign accent, but certainly without the mandarin's 儿 ). For Classical Chinese was, at least in Vietnam and Korea, the official language, not the common people's language.

it could be in Vienam and Korea, but why japan? ppl in india have to speak english before, but why Germany?

sure without 儿, as

1/ they didnt adopt mandarin

2/ they couldnt pronounce R, that's why accent generated. (the guys i know from korea, always say"tired"as"tiead" )

If we compare with French, we should not compare with Vietnamese words borrowed from French language, but to French spoken and written by the Vietnamese elite under the French colonization: it was French with an accent but with correct (even academic) French grammar. The same as English for the Indian elite under British rule.

why? they still speak french right now, but Korean, Vietnamese and japanese(they never ever speak it though) didnt speak chinese for thousand years....

Korean and Vietnamese native languages have nothing in common ,the same for Japanese and Vietnamese native languages (as for comparing Korean and Japanese, I'm not qualified to do so). Korean, Japanese and Vietnamese 汉字 is the only linguistic common point, so if there are similarities in the pronunciation of some characters, it should be due to their common origin, i.e. to their original pronunciation in guan hua

i dont mean that they have something in common at language itself, but the habit of pronunciation, for example"R", it sure will cause them speaking "L","N""ea" instead. and many other examples maybe.

[shibo77]

您好39度北! 我没有搞懂您针对我replied的意思. 但我觉得您是在说"为伸么不直接选择一个方言当用作官话而在朝廷上用呢?" 我的解释是这样的:

"最小公倍数"不是我个人的理论, 是在汉语学里很有地位的一个理论. 有一点需要搞清楚, 中文是延续不段的一个语言. 首都可以变迁, 朝代可以被推翻, 但是古汉语发音的变化是一个延续不段的过程. 迁都后, 朝廷就把官话带到了新的首都(比如说临安吧). 十年, 二十年后, 朝廷里临安人,杭州人就会占一个大的比重. "官话"的语言也自然地纳入了很多的临安方言. 就是这样, 一个又一个首都变迁, 一个又一个朝代兴末, 原始的古汉语就化变了. 我举的湖南,四川,广东例子比较夸张,抱歉! 但是基本的原理就是这样.

要英文的翻译? 你要是看不懂中文在这个thread没事闲着啦?!

You don't know Chinese? Then what are you doing in this thread??

Joking, basically, "least common denominator" is a well accepted theory in phonology development. When a dynasty changes capital or collapses, development in the GuanhuaBureaucratic Speech is inevitable. For example, when the Song government retreated from their northern capital in Dongjing to Linan, many changes occured. After 10 or 20 years after the move, people from the surrounding areas, namely Linan/Hangzhou people would have dominated a great portion in the imperial bureaucracy. They would have contributed a great influx of the dialect originally spoken there in Hangzhou. Of course the changes are not dramatic, because they still had to have "proper" Guanhua Bureaucratic Speech, in order to be accepted into imperial office positions. But over time, the original Classical Chinese evolved, up to today's Mandarin, Guanhua based around the Beijing dialect. Sorry for my exaggerated example of the Hunan, Guangdong, Sichuan trio. Though the method was shown.

Exactly what I thought when I first saw what sean showed for the Vietnamese equivalent. So similar! Of course the p changed to f as well.

These p, f, b, v are usually among the first to change, and also the vowels. Does Vietnamese have many homophones, because Chinese has too many homophones for me to communicate effectively simply using Pīnyín. Would I be able to communicate effectively simply using Hán Việt? I hope so! Next time, I will try to find a poem in Classical E Zhou pronounciation.

I hope this helped!

- Shibo Hitting the wall like this really stimulates the imagination.

[39degN]

您好39度北! 我没有搞懂您针对我replied的意思. 但我觉得您是在说"为伸么不直接选择一个方言当用作官话而在朝廷上用呢?" 我的解释是这样的:

"最小公倍数"不是我个人的理论, 是在汉语学里很有地位的一个理论. 有一点需要搞清楚, 中文是延续不段的一个语言. 首都可以变迁, 朝代可以被推翻, 但是古汉语发音的变化是一个延续不段的过程. 迁都后, 朝廷就把官话带到了新的首都(比如说临安吧). 十年, 二十年后, 朝廷里临安人,杭州人就会占一个大的比重. "官话"的语言也自然地纳入了很多的临安方言. 就是这样, 一个又一个首都变迁, 一个又一个朝代兴末, 原始的古汉语就化变了. 我举的湖南,四川,广东例子比较夸张,抱歉! 但是基本的原理就是这样.

要英文的翻译? 你要是看不懂中文在这个thread没事闲着啦?!

You don't know Chinese? Then what are you doing in this thread??

抱歉我没交代清楚，同时拜托别开国际玩笑，地道中国土著会不懂中文吗？ 你以为我也受外族影响，语言退化了啊？

sorry for that i didnt make myself clear.

本人非语言专业，没有过多理论研究，在此不过是想指摘一下传统汉学研究里的颇多偏颇之处而已，此最小公倍数理论先前未有所闻，想来也是外国汉学家所创（且不提前代汉学家好多人连中国都没来过），其于真正汉学研究是否具有权威性地位暂不深究，但是您所提到的官话变迁恐无从考证，就现有资料来看，元朝之前究竟有无官话这个概念值得商榷，我的意思是，很有可能前代根本就没有有意对语言加以统一，您所说的官话随着首都走真是不知从何说起。而元代就是直接吸收北京方言作为官话，有些人认为MANDARIN是最年轻的语言也是因为这个，我只是想说没有证据表明元代之前数千年北京附近地区方言跟现在有天壤之别。

as a non-linguistics major, i'm not really good at theories, neither interested in it, but i just want to correct some warp in chinese language history research. i've never heard about the "least common denominator" theory, but i guess that was created by western chinese scholars(despite some of them might never been in china), anyhow, it's not very important. but i m afraid there was no so-called guan hua before yuan dynisty. the fact should be, when a city was set as capital, the dialect of there naturally became the near-official language, and with the capital's changing, there could've been more official language changes there. i think we dont have essential point differences with this, but what i did just for that i wanted to correct some ppl's point of mandarin is the youngest dialect and north dialects changed a lot from ancient chinese language, no evidences show that north dialects changed much more than south dialects.

同时也希望您能提供所提到的最小公倍数理论在古代的实际作法的具体论据，我是说前代的记载，因为如果仅仅是靠推测和想象去论证这些就跟我先前的随意想象没有任何本质的区别了。

meanwhile i would like to see your evidences of least common denominator's practice record from history books. wild imaginations as i used doing do not make sense at all...

thank you!

tired.

[nnt]

39degN and shibo77 :

As linguists say:

"The proof of a pudding is is in the eating" (I love pudding theory...)

So I'm waiting for your poem in Classical E Zhou pronunciation, in order to ®eat (read) it.

[39degN]

As linguists say:

"The proof of a pudding is is in the eating" (I love pudding theory...)

So I'm waiting for your poem in Classical E Zhou pronunciation, in order to ®eat (read) it.

yeah, agree, i m waiting for it too.

i'm just wondering without andio data, how can we get the right ancient pronunciation? 莫非有古人“投胎转世”? there are several books talking about phonology written by ancient scholars, but as you know, they noted the pronunciation in ways like"反切" i.e. getting the new character's(i mean the characters you do not recognize) right pronunciation by combination of recognized characters, but obviously, when the accent changed, sure the whole system will not work anymore... i mean, when we said recognized characters incorrectly, sure the new words couldnt be pronounced correctly.

waiting for deep view of this.

[shibo77]

是呀! 汉语学的研究家里外国人占很大的比例.很多大都市里的人中文都挺退化的. 哇撒! 真酷! 您牛! 我干! ...

实际上, 语言是我的第二专业. 家里想让我学医, 经济... 我却学建筑了. "最小公被数"是由瑞典学者, Bernhard Karlgren (高本汉) , 提出.

官话是在宋政府迁入临安以后才形成. 以前用的是文言. 在中国历史上第一次对中文,写与说,大规模加以统一是赢政. 汉朝也有语言统一的政策,集中与第一个中文字典«说文解字». 唐朝,宋朝对语言是比较放松. 现在中文(文言)时代的分类:

BCE -Before Common Era, Before Christ 公元前,西元前

CE -Common Era, Anno Domini 公元,西元

Literary Chinese Periodisation (1999):

前远古Pre-Proto Chinese PPC

远古Proto-Chinese PC or Ancient Chinese AC or Archaic Chinese AC

Neolithic-1600BCE

Very little is known. More characters are added with each new excavation. Used the 甲骨文Oracle Bone script.

上古, 儒(约公元前五到二世纪)Old Chinese OC or Classical Chinese CC 1600BCE-200CE Most consider Confucius' writing the core of Classical Chinese.

Early Old Chinese eOC 1600BCE-1100BCE

金文, 殷文the Bronze Script

Middle Old Chinese mOC 1100BCE-200BCE

Used the 大篆Large Seal script, 小篆Small Seal script.

Late Old Chinese lOC 200BCE-200CE

Used the 隶书(隸書)Chancellery/Clerical Script.

中古(约公元前二世纪到公元十三世纪)Middle Chinese MC ~420CE-1150CE

(1) 早期Early Middle Chinese eMC ~420CE-700CE

Used the 隶书(隸書)Chancellery/Clerical Script.

(2) 晚期Late Middle Chinese lMC ~700CE-1140CE Tang phonology is well described in 切韻 Qie4 Yun4 602CE. Song phonology is well described in 廣韻 Guang3 Yun4 1008CE. Used the 楷书(楷書)Standard(Pattern, Correct) script.

现代, 官话(约十四世纪至今)Modern Chinese MoC or "Mandarin" M ~1140CE-present

(1) 早期Early Modern Chinese eMoC 1150CE-1400CE The development to place the starting date earlier than 15th c is debatable. Used the 楷Standard script.

(2) 中期Middle Modern Chinese mMoC 1400CE-1650CE

Used the 楷Standard script.

(3) 晚期Late Modern Chinese lMoC 1650CE-present

Uses the 楷(Traditional) Standard script and the 简Simplified Standard script.

Also:

行Running script The handwritten style since the Han dynasty.

草Grass script The shorthand notetaking style since the Han dynasty.

There are a number of ways to arrive at the old phonology. 反切 is not a reliable method, it is usually among the last few ways to be tried. Another common way is to look at how foreign-loan words were translated. Especially 佛Buddhist loan words from 梵文Sanskrit, and 回Muslim loan words from 波斯文Farsi and 维吾尔文Üygür. Another very good source is 大漢和辭典 a Chinese-Japanese Dictionary by 橋本·万太郎MANTARÔ Hashimoto. It lists Chinese (Tang, Song) with Japanese 平仮名hiragana showing the Chinese (Tang, Song) pronounciation, and then the Sino-Japanese (Japanese Kanji loan) pronounciation. This dictionary has been very helpful to the reconstruction of Late Middle Chinese. A method described in a few previous posts, using the Chinese-loan words in the foreign languages (Korean, Japanese, Vietnamese) is generally not used by linguists, it is 99% unreliable, bascially for the reasons 39deg N have said. One cannot use the result (eg, Tang Chinese loaned word in Japanese), to determine the origin (eg, how the word was pronounced in Tang Chinese).

In general, the reconstruction of Chinese phonology have been relatively slow compared to advances in the reconstruction of Japanese or Latin. I study Classical Chinese, and some phonology of that era are taught. But remember there were many variations due to the disunity. Each variation could be considered there own language since they are separate nations. 孔丘Confucius spoke 鲁Lu "Variation" (remember, "variation" not "language" or "dialect"). 李聃Lao Tzu supposedly spoke the 成周Capital "Variation". Of course, we can never be sure about the reconstruction, like I have said, unless we try to resurrect 赢政Ying Zheng . Anymore questions about phonology, please discuss!

As for the poem, I haven't searched for it yet. But here is another example with reconstructed 成周Zhou pronounciation:

道可道, 非常道. 名可名, 非常名. 無, 名天地之始; 有, 名萬物之母.

道可道, 非常道. 名可名, 非常名. 无, 名天地之始; 有, 名万物之母.

(官Guan, Mandarin)

Dao4 ke3 dao4, fei1 chang2 dao4.

Ming2 ke3 ming2, fei1 chang2 ming2.

Wu2, ming2 tian1 di4 zhi1 shi3,

You3, ming2 wan4 wu4 zhi1 mu3.

(吴/吳Wu, Shanghainese)

To6 k'u5 to6, fi1 zaz6 to6.

Ming6 k'u5 ming6, fi1 zaz6 ming6.

Hu6, ming6 t'i:5 ti6 tsi1 si'5,

Iuu6, ming6 ve6 vea8 tsi1 mu5.

(粤Yue, Cantonese)

Dou6 ho2 dou6, fei1 soeng4 dou6.

Ming4 ho2 ming4, fei1 soeng4 ming4.

Mou4, ming4 tin1 dei6 dzi1 tsi2,

Jau6, ming4 mak9 mat9 dzi1 mou5.

(闽南Minnan, Taiwanese)

To7 kho2 to7, hui1 chiang5 to7.

Beng5 kho2 beng5, hui1 chiang5 beng5.

Bo5, beng5 thiN1 te3 chi1 si2,

Iu2, beng5 ban5 mih8 chi1 bo2.

(越Vietnamese)

Đạo khả đạo, phi thường đạo.

Danh khả danh, phi thường danh.

Vô, danh thiên địa chi thủy,

Hữu, danh vạn vật chi mẫu.

(中唐:长安Reconstructed Tang(Middle Period): Capital Variation)

*DawX khaX dawX pjij dzyang dawX.

*Mjieng khaX mjieng pjij dzyang mjieng.

*Mju, mjieng then dijH tsyi syiX.

*HjuwX, mjieng mjonH mjut tsyi muwX.

(东周:成周Reconstructed Eastern Zhou: Capital Variation)

*To khou(kut) to, fei(bei) tang to.

*Mheng khou(kut) mheng, fei(bei) tang mheng.

*Vo, mheng tan dut te(zit) sho,

*Fo, mheng fan fut te(zit) mho.

(韩Korean)

To ka to, pi sang to.

Myeng ka myeng, pi sang myeng.

Mwu, myeng chen ci ci si,

Yu, myeng man myul ci mo.

(和Japanese / 平仮名Hiragana)

Tou ka tou, hi jou tou. とうかとう、ひじょうとう

Mei ka mei, hi jou mei. 　めいかめい、ひじょうめい。

Mu, mei ten chi shi shi,　 む、めいてんちしし、　

Yuu, mei man motsu shi mou.　 ゆう、めいまんもつしもう。

(英English)

The Tao(Dao) that can be named, is not the eternal Tao.

The name that can be named, is not the eternal name.

The nameless, is the beginning of heaven and earth.

The named, is the mother of the thousand things.

Sorry for my literal translation, I took ideas from GF Feng/J English 's translation.

I hope that helps!

- Shibo