Chinese roots in other languages

[nnt]

道可道, 非常道. 名可名, 非常名. 無, 名天地之始; 有, 名萬物之母.

In Hán Việt:

Đạo khả đạo, phi thường đạo. Danh khả danh, phi thường danh. Vô, danh thiên địa chi thủy, hữu, danh vạn vật chi mẫu.

(There is a variant about punctuation...and meaning: 無名, 天地之始; 有名, 萬物之母

nameless, such was the universe in the beginnings; getting names is at the origin of all things)

đ = english d

ao = english ow in "now"

ư = japanese う ơng = pinyin eng

ương = japanese う + pinyin eng

kh = pinyin k

ph = pinyin f

th = pinyin t

d = english z

an = pinyin an

ưu = japanese う + pinyin u

â = pinyin e

ch = pinyin zh

âu = pinyin ou

[nnt]

shibo77:

Could you find a reconstruction of Tang's era pronunciation of the above text? I think it would be even more interesting than the E-zhou pronunciation (from which all variants have much evolved?).

Another idea would be the reconstitution of Tang's era pronunciation of a "regular" Tang poem (i.e. which follows Tang's rules) and compare it with the present day pronunciations.

[shibo77]

How do I do quotes?

Find a Tang reconstruction, I'll find it! But it will have to wait awhile, ~1week, 2weeks. Sorry!

WH Baxter and many other Sinologists think that Eastern Zhou was the ancestor to all/most of the dialects in present day China. But there is another "faction" of linguists who supports 殷商 latter half of the Shang dynasty as the ancestor. Of course, there are alot more different views to these two. I made a small attempt to reconstruct some, I only got a few words. I don't really study Tang Chinese. I also corrected some mistakes.

*Mid-Tang reconstruction < *Early-Han reconstruction

之*tsyi<*te

- Shibo

[nnt]

I've found an interesting link (Big5 code)about William H. Baxter:

http://www.geocities.com/sgoertzen/Chinese/mcb5.htm

李白﹐俠客行

Li Bai (LiX Baek), "Travels of a Knight-errant"

趙客縵胡纓 吳鉤霜雪明 mjaeng

銀鞍照白馬 颯沓如流星 seng

十步殺一人 千里不留行 haeng

事了拂依去 深藏身與名 mjieng

閑過信陵飲 脫劍膝前橫 hwaeng

將炙啖朱亥 持觴勸侯嬴 yeng

三盃吐然諾 五嶽倒為輕 khjieng

眼花耳熱後 意氣素霓生 srjaeng

救趙揮金槌 邯鄲先震驚 kjaeng

千秋二壯士 烜赫大粱城 dzyeng

縱死俠骨香 不慚世上英 'jaeng

誰能書閤下 白首太玄經 keng

Li Bai's rhyme words:

明　[微庚開三] ming2 (minh) < mjaeng 'bright'

星　[心青開四] xing (tinh) < seng 'star'

行　[匣庚開二] xing2 (hành) < haeng 'travel, conduct'

名　[微清開四] ming2 (danh) < mjieng 'name, fame'

橫　[匣庚合二] heng2 (hoành) < hwaeng 'horizontal, across'

嬴　[以清開四] ying (doanh) < yeng 'full, surfeit' [name]

輕　[溪清開四] qing (khinh) < khjieng 'light, trivial'

生　[生庚開二] sheng (sinh) < srjaeng 'live, grow, produce'

驚　[見庚開三] jing (kinh) < kjaeng 'startle'

城　[禪清開三] cheng2 (thành) < dzyeng 'town'

英　[影庚合三] ying (anh) < 'jaeng 'glory, hero'

經　[見青開四] jing (kinh) < keng 'canon, classic'

(I've added Hán Việt trancriptions)

Another poem from the link with transcribed rhymes:

劉方平﹐春怨

紗窗日落漸黃昏 (A23) hun1 (hôn) < xwon

金屋無人見淚痕 (A24) hen2 (ngân) < hon

寂寞空庭春欲晚 (C20) wan3 (vãn) < mjonX (C20 rhymes with A22)

梨花滿地不開門 (A23) men2 (môn) < mwon

(I've added Hán Việt trancriptions)

Middle Chinese is particularly interesting for me to compare with nowadays languages/dialects (just for fun, I'm no linguist).

The Zhou are nearly as distant to the Tang than the latter to ourselves, so it's also interesting to see the evolution from that time...

[39degN]

是呀! 汉语学的研究家里外国人占很大的比例.败涂地很多大都市里的人中文都挺退化的. 哇撒! 真酷! 您牛! 我干! ...

sure, your writing is a living proof.

joking. BTW, could you pls kindly to explain to our native fellow and foreign friends what does the 干 mean here?

is that was just[A] character had two stroke differences with 牛, or meaning外强中干 or [C] an ajactive means dry, or [D] the verb with famous meaning?

if your answer is any of A,B,C, then pls slip next paragraph, i m also sorry for got you wrong, otherwise, pls read my tip for you as below:

next time before you using it, pls make sure it's not a stone in front of you.

Another very good source is 大漢和辭典 a Chinese-Japanese Dictionary by 橋本·万太郎MantarôHashimoto. It lists Chinese (Tang, Song) with Japanese 平仮名hiragana showing the Chinese (Tang, Song) pronounciation, and then the Sino-Japanese (Japanese Kanji loan) pronounciation. This dictionary has been very helpful to the reconstruction of Late Middle Chinese.

about the 大漢和辭典 as a source, i think it's not realiable either, since:

1/诸 桥 辙 次 , is that 橋本·万太郎? according to my sorce, the auther is him, is a modern scholar, the ancient chinese pronounciation even a chinese couldnt find it, how come a japenese can do?

2/assuming his work based on ancient japanese records in hiragana of chinese pronunciation, dont you think hiragana's pronunciation had its own evolvement source? i mean their ancient pronunciation couldnt been as same as today's.

enjoy your holidays, the same to all the others who living in china right now, i'll be back after it. catch you all later!

[DavidHan]

Does Vietnamese have many homophones, because Chinese has too many homophones for me to communicate effectively simply using Pīnyín. Would I be able to communicate effectively simply using Hán Việt?

I think Vietnamese have many homophones, but less than Chinese. And you can using Hán Việt in communication, but it's not simple, because if you use Hán Việt so much with a native people, they won't understand you ( like me, hic hic hic, understand nothing)

[nnt]

I think Vietnamese have many homophones, but less than Chinese. And you can using Hán Việt in communication

We should distinguish Hán Việt words and Hán Việt as Sino-Vietnamese (Chinese language with Vietnamese pronunciation).

Vietnamese do not "speak" Hán Việt, but Vietnamese vocabulary is full of Hán Việt words.

"Vietnamese language" in Vietnamese is "tiếng Việt", in which Việt 越 itself is a Hán Việt word.

Việt ngữ 越语 is also used as a synonym for "tiếng Việt" in Vietnamese, but it sounds more pedantic in a Vietnamese context. In this case Việt ngữ is itself a Hán Việt word...

[DavidHan]

Well well, you're right, hihihi. I've learnt manythings from you. Very interesting. But what is Sino-Vietnamese????

[nnt]

But what is Sino-Vietnamese????

It's Hán Việt (Chinese pronounced Vietnamese way). You can take any Chinese text, modern or classic, and pronounce it Vietnamese way: it's Sino-Vietnamese.

A modern Chinese text in Hán Việt, especially those including conversations, would seem rather odd even for Vietnamese ears.

[shibo77]

sure, your writing is a living proof.

Arrrr!!!!

諸橋·徹次 MOROHASHI Tetsuji is another name. Same person. It is useful because it lists the Japanese pronounciations of the loaned words. Right, it is not very reliable either. The 大漢和辞典 is a great achievement in lexicography that which only the Oxford English Dictionary have surpassed. The information presented is considered very accurate. It lists the Kanji, the older scripts and variations(大篆,小篆), the modern hiragana, the Sino-Japanese pronounciation (漢音, 吳音,慣用音) the ancient hentaigana, the modern Mandarin pronounciation, the pronounciation according to "反切fanqie" to show the Middle Chinese pronounciations which he analysed from older sources (廣韻,辞海,中華大字典), the "方韻square rhyme" to mark the Middle Chinese tones(平,上,去,入,轻is not marked). Of course, Japanese phonology had its own evolution. But because Japanese is written with a syllabary, historical Japanese phonology is very well understood. Compared to historical Chinese phonology 简直就是小菜一碟. Japanese phonology can be basically summarised in one page.

Happy May 1st!

Workers of the world, unite!

- Shibo

[nnt]

"the ancient chinese pronounciation even a chinese couldnt find it' date=' how come a japenese can do?"[/quote']

You're not Japanese, how do you know a Japanese doesn't know ancient chinese pronunciation ?

(See here for a similar story:

http://www.chinapage.com/story/fish.html

)

ppl in india have to speak english before' date=' but why Germany

[/quote']

English and German languages are related languages (for their vocabulary), because the Anglo-Saxons came from Germany:

http://encyclopedia.thefreedictionary.com/Angle%20tribe

http://encyclopedia.thefreedictionary.com/Saxon

About Japanese borrowings from Chinese language, there is one interesting link:

http://www.jekai.org/entries/aa/00/no/aa00no08.htm

:

Multiple borrowings: 漢字 were borrowed for hundreds of years, and often they were borrowed multiple times. These borrowings are classified in 漢和辞典 by the misleading labels of Han 漢, Wu 呉 and Tang 唐.

漢音: This pronunciation is from the Sui 隋 and Tang 唐 dynasties in the 長安 area (not the 漢 Han dynasty), generally borrowed into Japan by scholars.

呉音: This pronunciation is from the Wu 呉 area, generally borrowed by monks and still most common for Buddhist readings.

唐音: Pronunciations borrowed from the Song 宋 dynasty onwards, not the Tang 唐 dynasty.

慣用音: In addition, pronunciations derived from error or linguistic change within Japan are also indicated. These four classifications are indicated with the single characters 漢・呉・唐・慣 with a circle around them.

古音: The least common pronunciation, the 古音 survives in such items as the hiragana and katakana to (と・ト) and no (の・ノ), being derived from 止 and 乃 respectively. This pronunciation derives from older Chinese, known as 上古音.

[DavidHan]

Well, learn manythings new everyday

[Quest]

Japan and China never had any major direct contacts, it seems a bit odd to me that Japan was able to adopt so many things Chinese. I mean it would be normal if they just copied the script, but 80% of their vocabulary? Is that possible without conquest or a forced change? Not to say just about every other thing they copied. It was more like moving a part of China to Japan. Did China really have that much influence?

[shibo77]

Quest

Joined: 24 Aug 2003

Posts: 999

Wa, your 999th post!! Great number! Japan and China never had direct contact, what do you mean by "direct contact"? They had many direct contacts.

- Shibo

[Quest]

yea i've been thru 333, 444, 888, and 999

now 1001 ge wo

[nnt]

I mean it would be normal if they just copied the script, but 80% of their vocabulary?

See the link here:

http://www.kanjistep.com/en/about/

One Kanji could have more than one pronunciation depending on whether it is used to represent a word of Chinese or Japanese origin(5). The Kanji 山, for instance, which means 'mountain', could be pronounced san in the word of Chinese origin and yama in the one of Japanese origin.

They not only copied the script to transcribe Japanese words, but also borrowed 100% (not just 80%...) of Chinese vocabulary, although 90% of it would rarely be used by a Japanese.

From the same link:

Dai-kanwa-jiten (the great Kanji-Japanese dictionary), which is considered to be the biggest Kanji-Japanese dictionary, contains approximately 50,300 Kanji

so approximately the number of characters in the biggest Chinese dictionaries.

Some old or rare Chinese characters are now more known as Kanji than Hanzi...

Did China really have that much influence?

Of course, it had!

But I think it has also to do with Japanese culture, too.

Just think of what they did in 30-40 years under the Meiji era.

[shibo77]

Sorry for such long delays.

道可道, 非常道. 名可名, 非常名. 無, 名天地之始; 有, 名萬物之母.

道可道, 非常道. 名可名, 非常名. 无, 名天地之始; 有, 名万物之母.

(官Guan, Mandarin)

Dao4 ke3 dao4, fei1 chang2 dao4.

Ming2 ke3 ming2, fei1 chang2 ming2.

Wu2, ming2 tian1 di4 zhi1 shi3,

You3, ming2 wan4 wu4 zhi1 mu3.

(中唐:长安Reconstructed Tang(Middle Period): Capital Variation)

*DawX khaX dawX pjij dzyang dawX.

*Mjieng khaX mjieng pjij dzyang mjieng.

*Mju, mjieng then dijH tsyi syiX.

*HjuwX, mjieng mjonH mjut tsyi muwX.

(东周:成周Reconstructed Eastern Zhou: Capital Variation)

*To khou(kut) to, fei(bei) tang to.

*Mheng khou(kut) mheng, fei(bei) tang mheng.

*Vo, mheng tan dut te(zit) sho,

*Fo, mheng fan fut te(zit) mho.

(越Vietnamese)

Đạo khả đạo, phi thường đạo.

Danh khả danh, phi thường danh.

Vô, danh thiên địa chi thủy,

Hữu, danh vạn vật chi mẫu.

Vietnamese seems to be between Tang and Mandarin?

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I didn't know which poem you wished for, so I chose one.

«无题»

昨夜星辰昨夜风,

画楼西畔桂堂东.

身无彩凤双飞翼,

心有灵犀一点通.

隔座送钩春酒暖,

分曹射覆蜡灯红.

嗟余听鼓应官去,

走马兰台类转蓬.

-李商隐

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

舒促分BY LEISURED/HURRIED

1平,2上,3去 -舒 1Level,2Rising,3Departing -(L)eisured tones

4入 -促 4Entering -(H)urried tones

七言律诗 Septasyllabic regulated verse

舒舒舒舒舒舒舒, LLLLLLL,

舒舒舒舒促舒舒. LLLLHLL.

舒促舒舒舒舒促, LHLLLLH,

舒舒舒促舒舒舒. LLLHLLL.

舒舒舒舒舒舒舒, LLLLLLL,

舒舒舒舒促舒舒. LLLLHLL.

舒促舒舒舒舒促, LHLLLLH,

舒舒舒促舒舒舒. LLLHLLL.

The "舒促LEISURED/HURRIED" pattern is not as stable as the "平仄 LEVEL/OBLIQUE" pattern in 律诗regulated verses.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

平仄分BY LEVEL/OBLIQUE

1平 -平 1Level -(L)evel tones

2上,3去,4入 -仄 2Rising,3Departing,4Entering -(O)blique tones

七言律诗 Septasyllabic regulated verse

平平仄仄平平<->仄, LLOOLL<->O,

仄仄平平仄仄<->平. OOLLOO<->L.

仄仄平平平仄<->仄, OOLLLO<->O,

平平仄仄仄平<->平. LLOOOL<->L.

平平仄仄平平<->仄, LLOOLL<->O,

仄仄平平仄仄<->平. OOLLOO<->L.

仄仄平平平仄<->仄, OOLLLO<->O,

平平仄仄仄平<->平. LLOOOL<->L.

<-> 可代换Interchangeable.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

*Dzak1 yaeH1 seng dzyin dzak1 yaeH1 pjuwng,

*HweiH luw sej1 banH1 kwejH4 dang tuwng1.

*Syin mju4 tshojX1 bjuwngH1 sraewng1 pjij yik4,

*Sim1 hjuwX1 leng sej4 'jit temX1 thuwng1.

*Kek1 dzwaH1 suwngH kuw tsyhwin1 tsjuwX1 nwanX,

*Pjun dzaw zyaeH1 bjuwH1 lap4 tong huwng.

*Tsjae yo4 theng1 kuX1 'ing1 kwan khjoH4,

*TsuwX1 maeX1 lan thoj4 lwijH trjwenH1 buwng1.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

«Sine Titulo»

Last night's stars, last night's wind.

West of the painted pavilion, east of the cassia hall.

Our bodies have no colorful phoenix-wings to fly side by side;

Our hearts are linked to each other as if by the line in the magic horn.

As she passed the hook from another seat, the spring wine was warm;

Divided into teams, we guessed at riddles under the red candle's light.

Alas, I had to answer the call of duty when the drum sounded,

And ride my horse to the Orchid Terrace, like a tumbleweed in the wind.

-Li Shangyin

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

-Shibo

[holyman]

Sino-Korean is closer to Cantonese; and Sino-Japanese is closer to 闽 Min (originally Sino-Japanese was extremely close to 吴 Wu, but 吴 later underwent dramatic changes itself due to Mandarin influence while Min was more sheltered). Mandarin was the result of northern non-Chinese ruling tribes learning Chinese and doing a poor job in learning the proper pronounciations, this simplified pidgin pronounciation eventually became adopted by the northern Chinese as well by the 12-13th century. There are endless papers regarding this in Chinese, and this is pretty much the consensus.

i think it should be closer to present cantonese and present min. koreans scholars agreed that their pronouciation for chinese characters are from shandong. which means, shandong pronouciation in tang/song dynasty sounds like present cantonese. after mongols and later on manchurians invaded china, northern people migrated to the south to avoid the fightings, thus bringing northern accent to the south for the third and fourth time, after qin shihuang and after wuhu luanhua.

and yes, mandarin is a result of mixture btw mongolian/manchurian and han accents. the r-colour can only be found in the accent of mongols/manchus.

[高可文]

(东周:成周Reconstructed Eastern Zhou: Capital Variation)

*To khou(kut) to, fei(bei) tang to.

*Mheng khou(kut) mheng, fei(bei) tang mheng.

*Vo, mheng tan dut te(zit) sho,

*Fo, mheng fan fut te(zit) mho.

How would this be pronounced? I see the letters, but all these "mh"'s! What do they sound like?

[shibo77]

mh has the IPA value [mh]. It is an ejectal stop. Pronounce Hanyu Pinyin's "b", and then pronounce Hanyu Pinyin's "p". "p" has the ejectal stop, but "b" does not. Now pronounce "mh" -eng.

The others are mostly straight-forward, but they are IPA, so pronounce "to" as IPA /to/ not English "to" which has the IPA value of /tu:/. Nor Hanyu Pinyin's "to" which has the IPA value of /tho/.

There are no tones, so don't try to pronounce them as one would in Mandarin or any other dialect. There is relative pitch. But the relative pitch is unlike English's, but more similar to Italian's or Japanese's relative pitch.

I hope this helped!

-Shibo