Chinese Goth Kids

[Bighead]

Was watching a movie with my girlfriend featuring some goth kids. She asked and I tried to explain what Goth is and why white kids do it.

Told her that I think white kids in the west have little culture to call their own. They crave a sense community and a way to identify themselves.

I used 文化 (wen hua) to say culture and 身份 (shen fen) to say identity but she had no idea what I was talking about.

I also tried to explain that's why a lot of white kids copy black urban kids, (black kids generally have a strong sense of community they can identify with).

Maybe it's because she comes from a place where culture is an intrinsic part of everyday life and she can't comprehend what it would mean to be without it. But it's probably because my Chinese is just not good enough. Any of you geeks know how to talk about this in hanyu?

Interesting note: while it's hard to imagine Gothic Chinese kids, seeing a Japanese kid like that is not hard at all. What's the difference? Is it only the level of exposure to western sub-cultures? My girlfriend is Shanghainese and they typically have a much higher level of exposure to western things.

[imron]

Any of you geeks know how to talk about this in hanyu?

As a bona fide geek (even got myself a degree in Computer Science), I'm afraid I don't know the answer to your question (though maybe searching for articles regarding 地下文化 would provide you with relevant vocab/terms). Perhaps you could also try extending the question to those non-geek members who frequent these forums?

[gato]

"Identity" is "认同", but since it's a newly devised Chinese word, your girlfriend may not know it -- just as most English speakers probably didn't know what "identity" was about when sociologists first started using it.

http://www.baidu.com/s?ie=gb2312&bs=%C8%CF%CD%AC&sr=&z=&cl=3&f=8&wd=%C8%CF%CD%AC+identity&ct=0

认同 identity

As for Goth, I think people get into it for the nearly the same reason they get in to punk. It doesn't have much to do with race or ethnic culture. Rather, it's a rebellion against consumerism for many. To understand it, I think you need to listen to some of the music and read the lyrics.

But since most mainland Chinese are still poor and the ones who are not haven't been not poor for that many years, you can't expect there to be much of an anti-consumerism culture here. Here the rich are looked up to.

[Bighead]

Ok, maybe I wasn't been clear.

The geek thing was just meant to be a lighthearted jab at how informative some of the comments in these threads are. I think of myself as a geek and I appreciate the quick and helpful responses on these forums. Of course the thread is open to non-geeks also.

Now, no doubt there are more complex reasons why a kid would choose to become a goth. But certainly forging an identity is a big part of it. How white kids in the western world really seem to be missing a sense of culture to define themselves by (I know this is the case me anyway). This is what I really wanted to focus on.

Really it's just another "how do you say this.." thread. How would you explain it to a Chinese person?

Plus any comments on the topic would be cool as well.

[xianu]

Having known many goth and punk kids in my "wild youth" (or days of being wild), I think Gato is partly right in saying that this is more a rebellious thing, though I wouldn't necessarily call it rebellion agains consumerism (have you seen how much their shoes cost?). Bighead - I also don't think it is so much a need to find culture, so much as a need to be part of a subculture (my far east E-C dict says ci wenhua "次文化” or ya wenhua qun‘亚文化群‘ where both ci and ya refer to "secondary" cultures. and probably part of an anti-authority sort of subculture, and anti-mainstream. Identity is definitely part of it, and I think the need to find a group to belong to.(maybe use self-identity? 自我认同？) There are punks in China (or I used to see them), and even skate punks. I think this sort of culture existed in Hong Kong, and I definitely saw it in Taiwan. If you are trying to draw a bit of parallelism between cultures to illustrate the place of goths (and I would still add punks, even though musically, they differ. I think culturally, they often stand for the same kind of rebellion), you might talk about the Beijing rock scene of Cui Jian's time. Those who listened to him and the other metal-influenced garage-y sounding rock bands were subversive, too, though they didn't necessarily express it outwardly in dress. I think those youths who consciously gravitate towards goth or punk culture, do so because they want to show that they don't agree with the mainstream, and more often than not, with their parents.

[heifeng]

http://life.worldbizcity.com/?p=13104

this article has some vocab you could reference.

I don't really think it is rebellion against consumerism, but against mainstream culture (which tends to focus a bit much on money, looks, and in school, the whole popularity issues and such).

As with any group, you can find acceptance and comfort in it, so there is a certain allure to being identified as xxxxx. ...standard afterschool special type of stuff.

have I seen some Chinese goth kids in China? Sure. Not that many, but they are around. In the US, there are plenty of different asian crews, and I wouldn't be surprised if it included goth kids too.

Interesting note: while it's hard to imagine Gothic Chinese kids, seeing a Japanese kid like that is not hard at all. What's the difference? Is it only the level of exposure to western sub-cultures? My girlfriend is Shanghainese and they typically have a much higher level of exposure to western things.

I don't know that much about Japanese families, but my impression is that Chinese kids are trained to 听话 and pass the 高考as soon as they pop out. (do you notice how silent the city is today because of testing by the way) I don't think it leaves that much time or room to devote to becoming goth...On the opposite end of the spectrum, American kids for example don't really fear their parents and have much more freedom in terms of personal time, behavior, expression, dress etc...

[gato]

but my impression is that Chinese kids are trained to 听话 and pass the 高考as soon as they pop out.

The Chinese teenagers rebel by playing online video games (subculture alert!) all day in internet cafes and neglect their studies, boys at least.

I think you see the same thing in Korea. Wasn't there a twenty-year old in Korea who died last year after playing 24 hours straight of video games?

[heifeng]

hahah that's right!...so the video game subculture is the way to go here I almost forgot about that.. (and there was the case in China where some lil' kid knifed his grandmother to death for not being allowed to play video games too)

[roddy]

Plus I think the threshold for a subculture here is lower - in the US / UK a kid wearing very baggy jeans / basketball gear / whatever (I have no idea what, to be honest, I stopped being down with the kidz ages ago) is hardly alternative, but for Chinese parents they're probably on the way to being a rebel without a cause.

[HashiriKata]

Trying to belong to some type of subculture group may not be so much as to try to create some kind of identity. It may simply be motivated by the fear of being left-out, of not belonging.

[wushijiao]

I think part of the problem in cross culture communication stems from the role of music in identity. In China, music plays almost no role in identity, while in the West it is pretty significant. In the US, especially in high school and college, you can look at someone's CD/music collection and draw strong impressions about what type of lifestyle choices/political choices they identify with. However, it wasn't always this way.

In fact, I was recently listening to an NPR podcasts in which they interview a British author of a book on youth sub-culture. According to this guy, it was only in the 1950's in the US in which young people consciously created a pop music culture that was self-referential in the sense that it sang about and referenced the issues that young people go through, as opposed to just songs talking about people in general. Of course, the Big Band era was significant, but it never tried to consciously differentiate itself from the mainstream culture of all ages.

I think that China right now is kind of in a similar process of that of the US in the 1950's-music-wise: building a happy/fun/cool music youth sub-culture that appeals to young people.

Anyway, as the counter-culture spread in the 1960's, and then punk in the 1970's, hip-hop in the 80's, hardrock in the same time...etc, it seems that music, and the sub-cultures that it generated became even more sub-compartmentalized, self-referential, and exclusive of other genres, to some degree.

Personally, I would say that since many people growing up in Western countries suffer from the severe Kafkaian boredom that a post-Historical society brings, they have to cling on to something to give them community and a sense of being, especially if they disagree with the mainstream's choice of music and social values.

In contrast, for the most part, most Chinese people like pop music. Why? I don't know. I think most Chinese pop is atrocious (personal opinion, don't take it the wrong way). But I also think that in China right now, most people don't have the material means and time to get into tons of different genres. Also, Chinese/Asian culture is still very collectivist-oriented, and thus being able to sing a pop song Karaoke-style at KTV takes precedence over liking the song's lyrical meaning as it relates to one's life. Not to mention, the damn CCP would never allow goth or anything like that to go mainstream.

So, I think you would have to explain all of these factors (plus some) in order to make a Chinese person understand why goth exists, I think.