So, what do they come for, if it's not for teaching English?

[david1978]

A male typically should be getting stuck in to his career after 25 - building it up in his 30's and at the peak of his earning powers in his 40's. Any male who finds himself teaching in China after the age of 30 can consider himself a failure in life (Thanks Mrs Thatcher for the quote :-) ).

This statement is incongruent with the economies of post-industrial nations. It is inconceivable for anyone to be "stuck in to his career after 25" (interesting choice of words) when in the specialized, service-sector economies of the West, a Bachelors degree has significantly dropped in value. In today's economy it is a given that to have a career one must have a professional degree, e.g., JD, MD, MBA, CPA, and so on. Let's be generous and say that the average male student in the U.S. completes his undergrad program in a timely schedule to receive his BA at 22 years of age (in reality 24 is the average age for males), and let's say that this student went onto graduate school immediately following the completion of his undergrad degree without taking any time off, and completed his graduate degree in a timely schedule of 3 or 4 years, depending on the profession (longer for Ph.D candidates), in reality, then, the average male should be 25-26 years old when he gets his entry level job. But this is the most ideal scenario, reality is always more complicated.

The quote you posted above reflects an era where getting a BA was still something of an achievement. It was also an era where people rarely traveled and had children by 25. However, the demands of today's market place are vastly different than Thatcher's era. We, i.e., those of us who are under 30 but over 25, are not getting married or having kids, and we're typically in school far longer. Therefore, if you insist on judging people's worth based on their professional standing, add 10 years to your figures for a more accurate picture of post-modern society.

[ipsi()]

Note: I'm assuming you're in the US as I don't have any proof to the contrary.

David, that's pretty insane if that's the standard in America. I'm about to graduate at the end of this year with my two undergraduate degrees at the age of 21. If I wanted to do a post-graduate programme, that would take another year for honours, then an additional one or two for masters. Or I could not do that, and still likely get a decent job in New Zealand. And if I had done only one degree I would have already graduated and be out and working, at the age of 20. Even then, worst case scenario would be 22 for a masters, which seems to be quite unnecessary over here and only really needed for a few specialised areas.

Man. Seems to be excessively hard in the States...

[david1978]

@ ipsi():

You're right: the educational requirements the U.S. economy places on the average person are high, but I suspect the same is to be found in most post-industrial nations, e.g., Europe, Japan, Israel, etc. This is largely due to free markets, of course. There was a time when a robust U.S. manufacturing base provided Americans with dignified jobs, union protection, benefits, and so on. However, with the increasing rise of technology, and the wave of outsourcing to "Chindia," the U.S. moved from an economy based on industry to one based on services, e.g., lawyers, accountants, investment bankers, doctors, etc. These jobs require professional degrees which demand a person spend a considerably longer time in school than previous. Simply put. today it is inconceivable to expect a six figure salary with a BA; even from a top school. Moreover, most students major in subjects like political science, art history, English, in other words, subjects that have no practical application. This is why I think the original comment that a person should be "stuck in to his career at 25" is misinformed. At 25 most people are still figuring things out. I recently heard a sociologist say 25 is the new 21; I agree.

[ipsi()]

It possibly is. It's definitely not in New Zealand, however. While you'd be very unlikely to get a six-figure salary with a B.A., that's more to do with the fact that a B.A. is regarded as "Bugger All". Having said that, I don't think anyone in New Zealand will be walking into a job with a six-figure salary, no matter what their qualification. A few years with experience, maybe. A bachelor's degree will be fine though. With regards to Accounting and Legal professionals, most start their career at age 21-22 or so over here. Though they're not registered professionals, but are working in that area and are planning to become registered within a few years. I think it's at least two more years of working before you become a C.A., and I'm not sure about taking the bar exam as a lawyer.

The other thing that strikes me as odd is the fact that you're talking about BAs exclusively, or at least implying that they're extremely common. I guess that's because American Universities don't let you do anything else until you've done a B.A.? At least, I've heard something along those lines. Whereas here, the majority of Professionals won't have a B.A. I certainly won't, but I will have a B.C.A., and a B.Sc. Indeed, Accountants spend only an extra year at University beyond what a B.A. student would spend, as do Lawyers.

I gotta say, if that is the case, it seems really bizzare. I'd be a bit annoyed to be forced to study a B.A. before moving on to whatever I want to do for a career.

[Crivens200]

Interesting information there David, which I think I agree with to an extent on further reflection, though I think around 25 should be the latest starting point for anyone intending on pursuing a career along the lines of one of the professions. Any older than this and potential employers really won't take you seriously, especially if the candidate has been teaching English in China for any longer than 12 months.

Actually, I have a lot of German friends and they all seem to spend a longer time in education and start their careers a lot later - sometimes late 20's early 30's.

Personally I don't see the value of further education after 25 - I think 3 or 4 years of practical experience after 25 is infintely more valuable than further studies.

Actually, anyone who comes to China and is slightly ambitious maybe should be looking to start up their own thing. There are still a lot of opportunties here for anyone with a bit of drive and common sense. Who wants to spend 40 years of their life staring at a computer screen in an office working with a bunch of people you don't want anything to do with after 5pm?

I guess this brings us back to the point of the original question - why do they come here? I'd rather teach English in China than spend 40 years of my life in an office . . . . . hell I'd rather be dead than choose that path in life.

[david1978]

Actually, I have a lot of German friends and they all seem to spend a longer time in education and start their careers a lot later - sometimes late 20's early 30's.

Your friends are typical, Crivens. Also keep in mind that we haven't even discussed the fact that people are not getting married or having children thus feeling no great urgency to make a lot of money. It's likely that your parents, like mine, had you by their mid to late twenties. But who today has a family at 25 or even 30?

[david1978]

@ ipsi():

You're correct: in the U.S. a BA is a prerequisite to any professional degree. You cannot get an MS in accounting, an MBA, a JD, etc, without completing a BA first. After the BA we have to take a standardized test such as the LSAT, the MCAT, or the GMAT whose score will determine what tier grad program we will go to. With that said, the solace lies in knowing that when you do finally graduate and are ready to begin work in your late 20s or early 30s, you get a handsome six figure starting salary which usually also includes a handsome yearly bonus and benefits.

[ipsi()]

Interesting. I have to say, I think I prefer the way it works over here, which is that you get out and working as soon as possible. I assume it costs money for the BA and then another ungodly sum for the Professional Degree? And given that you're still technically students while studying for your professional degree, I assume you retain the average standard of living for a student (i.e. piss-poor)?

Then again, starting out with a six-figure salary would be damn nice. Hmm. Food for thought either way.

[david1978]

Student loans are a whole other matter! The cost of tuition in a top private university is obscene. I'll be starting law school in the fall semester of 2008 and I feel dizzy just thinking about how much it's going to cost me.

[ipsi()]

So you *need* that six figure salary to pay for the cost of getting it in the first place. Awesome

Just for comparison, Domestic Students pay around NZ$6,000 a year in tuition at my University (which, given how small New Zealand is, is at the same level as the rest), with another NZ$1000 or so for Textbooks, and up to around NZ$4,500 in living costs, for a total of around NZ$11,500 a year, meaning worst-case scenario you end up with a NZ$46,000 student loan after four years. Which can be reduced if you do the very sensible thing of living at home, to around NZ$28,000. And it's interest-free assuming you stay in New Zealand after graduating.

Admittedly, the cost varies depending on what you study. BA students pay less, Law and Science students pay more, etc. Doctors and Dentists and the like pay even bigger sums. But while it seems big to me, I've got a strange feeling you're going to be a bit jealous

[david1978]

Don't tell me how much NZ law schools cost. That might destroy my impression that a 200K student debt is normal.

[ipsi()]

200K student debt is normal.

Please tell me you're joking. Please? That's just insane. What sort of interest do they charge on your student loans?

[david1978]

I believe it's currently hovering around a 7.14. And no, I'm not joking.

[kdavid]

A male typically should be getting stuck in to his career after 25 - building it up in his 30's and at the peak of his earning powers in his 40's. Any male who finds himself teaching in China after the age of 30 can consider himself a failure in life (Thanks Mrs Thatcher for the quote :-) ).

In China, thanks to the dirt-cheap cost of living, I'm able to take 60% of my income every month and invest it. Let's just say I'm making 1000 USD a month, that's $600 a month. How many average westerners, living a typical western life-style, can honestly say that they consistently save $600 a month?

Talking about "earning power", making 100k a year back home doesn't do jack for my future if I can't save any of it....

[imron]

You might not be able to save $600 a month if you were working in a low paid job and I imagine there are many Americans in that situation, but once student loans were paid off, then at 100k I'd imagine you'd be able to save significantly more than $600 a month. Especially if say you were paying off a mortgage, which is essentially just another form of saving. Add to that 401K plans and other benefits you'd have working in the US, then saving $600 a month doesn't really count for much if you're planning on returning to the US to live at some stage.

[ipsi()]

Hmm... Given that $600/month is only $150/week, it shouldn't be that hard for anyone on a decent salary to save that much. Hell, I could do that if I was made of sterner stuff by borrowing $150 from the government, interest free, and investing it. And I'm a student (but I can only do this *because* I'm a student...)

And yeah, having your own house is one of the best forms of savings, I reckon. If you looked at a large number of households, I suspect that rent would be one of the biggest expenses of those that are renting. So we could probably count a mortgage as savings. And I'd be very surprised if you were paying off a mortgage with only $150/week. Hell, that wouldn't even cover the interest.

[HashiriKata]

saving $600 a month doesn't really count for much if you're planning on returning to the US to live at some stage.

Even if you can save much more than $600 (such as if you teach in Japan), an easy life as an English teacher abroad may spoil you and prevent you from making the necessary effort in order to lead a normal life on returning home.

[david1978]

You might not be able to save $600 a month if you were working in a low paid job and I imagine there are many Americans in that situation, but once student loans were paid off, then at 100k I'd imagine you'd be able to save significantly more than $600 a month. Especially if say you were paying off a mortgage, which is essentially just another form of saving. Add to that 401K plans and other benefits you'd have working in the US, then saving $600 a month doesn't really count for much if you're planning on returning to the US to live at some stage.

I agree with you, Imron. If someone is putting away $600 a month, that's a mere $7200 a year in savings! To put things in perspective, a summer internship stipend at a corporate law firm for 1st year students is at least 3 times that amount.

China's GDP per capita for 2006 is a measly $7,700. I don't see how that can be considered a respectable income, especially when taking into account the increasing burden on families as China rolls back her state services. e.g., healthcare, employment, and housing.

[roddy]

no offense to the qualified teachers here' date=' but

anytime someone tells me they're teaching english in china, i immediately assume they

can't find a real job in the real world[/quote']

No disrespect to the small majority of teachers who are doing it for altruistic reasons' date=' but the majority of teachers (male) are here for the simple lifestyle, cheap beers and easy girls.

...

Any male who finds himself teaching in China after the age of 30 can consider himself a failure in life[/quote']

it could even be said that some English teachers in China may not even manage to get a job in their home country in the EU/US,

If find these views all a bit odd. The majority (vast majority now?) of EFL teachers in China will have a degree at least, which means you are either capable of getting a job - maybe not a great job, or the job you want, but a job - or undertaking further education / training to improve their prospects. I really don't think even the most melodramatic graduate, faced with an unwelcoming job market, is going to throw up their arms in despair and say 'Sod this, I'll have to go to China.' People come to China because they want to come to China. They might not be great teachers, but I wouldn't assume they are therefore hopeless human beings who would otherwise be sleeping on the street. Particularly when you look at some of the morons gainfully employed in more developed countries. Apologies to any morons reading.

There's a remarkable amount of snobbery aimed at people teaching English in China. I've seen people who only a few years ago were singing songs with four year olds themselves virtually refuse to speak to people because they were 'only teaching'. That to me seems a particularly ridiculous kind of prejudice, perhaps borne of a 'if I think he's shit, I'm automatically better' kind of psychology.

Thinking back to the people I worked with when I was teaching (three years in China in total, and I stopped before I hit thirty in order to do something I enjoyed more for less money overall) the vast majority made efforts to do the best they could, often under difficult circumstances, and all were quite capable of getting jobs elsewhere. I can think of only one guy (who I won't name as I'm willing to bet good money people on here have also met him) that China could have sent home to its net benefit.

Maybe I was just particularly lucky with the people I met and worked with. If I remember correctly Mr Stinky is in Kunming, which attracts more than its fair share of backpacker-type teachers I think, and I wonder if that has affected his view. Hashirikata I don't think has spent any extended time in China (?). Crivens I don't know.

Anyway, I no longer stand among the ranks of teachers, but I still reckon they deserve a little more credit.

[david1978]

I've done my fair share of backpacking, in China and elsewhere, and I don't understand the arrogance and snobbery directed toward English teachers. To me, those who teach English strongly desire to live in China and are willing to do whatever it takes to have accommodation. I see nothing wrong with that, whether you're 40 or 18. I also find it absurd that the snobby expats won't even acknowledge you with a nod, no matter how non-touristy the region you're in may be. Oh well. I guess in their mind your Western presence is fudging up their precious China experience which, obviously, only they are entitled to.