So, what do they come for, if it's not for teaching English?

[muyongshi]

I also find it absurd that the snobby expats won't even acknowledge you with a nod, no matter how non-touristy the region you're in may be.

I see an expat and my first response is to greet them. Unfortunately I always look like a fool when I go to hong kong. No one there cares. Don't know how it is in Beijing or Shanghai but over here there's still that little that there is a special bond between us all.

[david1978]

That's nice to hear, Muyongshi. I love that special bond and understanding between experienced travelers. When I was backpacking in Morocco, anytime I'd spot another Westerner, especially in the very remote regions, we'd practically run to give each other a hug. It was great. I met some wonderful, unpretentious people.

[muyongshi]

Don't know that I've ever had the hug urge personally but I can't saw that I've been that remote or away for a long enough period of time.

I live in a city with maybe 50 foreigners. 75% of whom I never see because they stay on their respective campus'. So I go to a city like Chengdu and I go into shock. No joke. It's overload in a way.

[david1978]

To me Beijing and Shanghai have the feel of hyper-international cities, and I love that. A lot of my friends will say it's not "real China," but I don't buy that. Admittedly, though, I don't want to move to Shanghai because I'm not as crazy about the intense commercial atmosphere. I'll have plenty of that when I return in 3 years after completing law school.

[simonlaing]

Here, here, Roddy,

The teacher life here can be quite good. Your standard of living in the small and medium cities is very good. Some people point out that you can save money. I would like to point out that you can eat out every night if you want, go traveling 4 or more times a year and generally be seen as a hip dude even if you're just average at home.

I taught for 5 years, (some of that time was studying Chinese fulltime as well) . But most of it was teaching. For two of the years I had a sweet Job teaching about 12 hours a week to English major students who wanted to learn in class sizes of 12 -25. I could bike everywhere. I played Volleyball on the School team and did some coaching of a Girls soccer team as well . The volleyball courts were lighted thus allowing us to play to 9:30 pm at night every night . (Winters are mild in Nanjing most of the time) .

I felt like I was in a cross between the movies "the Beach and Groundhog day"

The time off is up to you what to do with it. Some filled it with extra classes, two teachers at my school got into kungfu and weapons fighting. One person bought land in the country and built a house. Another teacher friend traveled almost every weekend to some where new, he negotiated fridays off. ( Can you imagine being able to take fridays off every week in the US? it happens in France I'm told but it still boggles my mind)

I took Chinese classes and played volleyball. I even splurged on a massage chair for the luxury apartment my school lent me free of charge.Later I started a Baseball team and worked as a bar promotor (an phase of silly alcoholism, but interesting never-the-less). I still played poker and went out with western friends sometimes. And watched more TV series on DVD than my friends back home did on TV.

Plus Chinese people are friendly and genuine for the most part. You do get people who want free english classes but you get many more people who just want to be friends. I was invited to a CS internet game team, Played pool in out of the way places known only my taxi Pimp friend. China is an interesting changing place. Also it will be the 2nd super power ask anyone.

You will be able to say I lived and worked in China on your resume. I think I have gotten a lot out living in China. An yes I still like Chinese food.

My friends in the US have been laid of 4 or 5 times. Because of Mergers and other issues. Others have been stuck at Temp jobs.

If you can get over the fact that you earn less than $10K a year, it is a good gig.

My 2 cents.

have fun,

Simon:)

P.S. you do get some weird English teachers or sex tourists, but they're the exception not the rule in my opinion.

[HashiriKata]

Originally Posted by Hashirikata' date=' [b']elsewhere[/b]

it could even be said that some English teachers in China may not even manage to get a job in their home country in the EU/US

I think you quoted me out of context, roddy! I said this ONLY in a thread where people were comparing the salary they get as a teacher in China with that of middle management positions in the EU/US, which is unrealistic to me. In this situation, I said "some" (and not "all", not "many") may not even manage to get a job in their home country, not to mention a middle management position, which I think is fair enough a statement, don't you think?

[cdn_in_bj]

I taught for 5 years, (some of that time was studying Chinese fulltime as well) . But most of it was teaching. For two of the years I had a sweet Job teaching about 12 hours a week to English major students who wanted to learn in class sizes of 12 -25. I could bike everywhere. I played Volleyball on the School team and did some coaching of a Girls soccer team as well . The volleyball courts were lighted thus allowing us to play to 9:30 pm at night every night . (Winters are mild in Nanjing most of the time) .

I felt like I was in a cross between the movies "the Beach and Groundhog day"

This reminds me of being back in university - near the end I was only attending about 12 hours of classes/week, or even less, depending on my drinking schedule. But as much as I hated going to class, those were some fun times. I sure wouldn't mind revisiting those days...

If you can get over the fact that you earn less than $10K a year, it is a good gig.

I am curious as to the average "career life" of an English teacher? From reading the other posts on this forum I get the impression it's around 3 - 5 years, before they move onto other things. But there is also the minority which do it for much longer, presumably some of these individuals have started business ventures related to their profession.

Also, when the English teaching stint ends, what next? Do these people decide to go home, go to another country, or stay and work in a different field?

[david1978]

Simonlaing, I think your post, partly at least, suggests that the snobbery directed toward expats is limited to Shanghai and Beijing, where a foreigner's employment options are more diverse. I can't imagine foreigners snubbing one another in a place like Nanjing where status is limited to student or teacher.

[david1978]

I am curious as to the average "career life" of an English teacher? From reading the other posts on this forum I get the impression it's around 3 - 5 years, before they move onto other things.

Speaking from personal experience, i.e., having many friends who've taught English in foreign countries, the average tenure was one year. What's more, their profiles were diverse so I find this notion that only bums and losers teach English silly. For example, my lifelong best friend spent a full year, last year, teaching English in Vietnam. He's 30 years old, has a PhD in electrical engineering and pulls more than 150K a year designing communication systems for a major defense company. Another of my friends who works with me in the film industry as a union camera man two years ago decided he needed an adventure and got himself a job in Dalian. Turns out he was greatly seduced by East Asia and now lives in HK permanently. Maybe the people who are really bitter toward English teachers had bad experiences, but I wouldn't be so quick to trash them. They're doing a great service to Sino-U.S relations by building bridges on the ground level and deserve some respect in my opinion, despite some of them being party animals.

[simonlaing]

Thanks David for the perspective. I do think westerners can jump from part time job to part time job in Shanghai and Beijing more easily than in the smaller cities.

On the long term scale. I find there is a 1 year and a half litnus test if at 1 and half years they are still in love with China they will stay in China for awhile whether it is still in teaching depends on the person and their opportuinities.

There are also divisions in the long term teachers in those that learn at least passable chit chat Chinese and those to stick with get by Chinese. It mostly affects whether they can move in and out of Chinese friend circles.

Of the dozen or so job hoppers I knew in Shanghai, very few of them had good chinese skills even though they had been in Shanghai a couple of years.

Anyway, I agree with the Sino-US relations diplomacy for a lot of chinese we will be the only foreigner they will be able to talk to at length and ask dicey questions like why are human rights so important and did Tianamen Square actually happen.

Yeah, I think in the future we'll have more people who will have had taught first then went on to greatness.

HAve fun,

Simon:)

[johnmck]

Can you imagine being able to take fridays off every week in the US? it happens in France I'm told but it still boggles my mind

Not true for France, it depends upon the company but the best on offer is only every other Friday off (this is in addition to 5 weeks holiday ). (of course you could try to negotiate all the other Fridays off using up your 5 weeks holiday)

The legal rule is a maximum of 35 hours a week + five week holidays for staff paid per hour. For those paid a monthly salary (regardless of hours worked) the limit is a maximum of 218 working days a year.

Why not come and teach English in France?

[david1978]

Not true for France, it depends upon the company but the best on offer is only every other Friday off.

The same deal is generally true in America as well. Most companies will give you every other Friday off.

[Senzhi]

Vous avez des dumplings en France?

Je pense aussi que les salaires des profs n'est pas fameux en France, comme en Belgique.

I don't think teachers in France have that much of a brilliant salary either. Am I wrong?

[gato]

Probably much harder to get an English-teaching job making a living wage in France, though. N'est-ce pas?

[simonlaing]

I have relatives who live in rural France. I didn't mean to be so broad based , but when ever I visit it seems like a hassle to get things done because certain stores will be open or closed on a monday or Friday.

Other strange things coming from living in Chinese medium sized city when you can get almost anything until 9pm at night and most things if you know where to look.

Restaurants are closed from 5 pm to 7 pm. Banks and the post office have weird hours . The post office is like 10-12 pm then 3-6pm . I am told banks are open even less in Spain.

Most jobs have 8 weeks of vacation which means certain towns in July and August become ghost towns as everyone goes on vacation. Johnmck perhaps you can say if this is true for Paris.

The countryside picturesque mountains and the cheeses are incredible. But it can be frustrating going to a restaurant at 6 pm and being told you have to wait until 7 to get a table.

I met an English teacher in Italy she said the pay was decent but the men had communication issues. I think France usually wants a teaching qualification to work there and or working permit.

I guess different places have different ideas of normal.

Have fun,

Simon:)

[Hero Doug]

I think most everything has been said already. Two things to add.

Point One

One thing I've noticed is a lot of people defending the teachers are teachers themselves, and a lot of people putting them down haven't said what their doing in China, or aren't teachers.

I wonder if this is because the people who haven't taught don't fully understand the trade or the people who have come to teach.

Keep in mind people typically like to talk about negative issues (the news illustrates my point). I've never been out with my friends and had a conversation about the someone's good work ethics. Maybe "showing up to work one time" and "preparing for class" is interesting to some, but most likely not interesting to the average joe. When all you hear about is negative behaviour it's easy to generalize.

Point Two

Kind of been said before, but I want to throw my support behind it as well.

You only live once, so if living in the same area, going to the same job,, going back to the same house, and doing the same activities with the same people for your whole life is your thing, then fine, do that. Some of us want to do something other then sell 25 years of our lives for a house and car.

With that said, I've looked at teaching ESL long-term and I simply don't see it as a viable option for myself.

So I'm using this time to study a new major, continue my Chinese studies, and continue to work (I'm even looking into opening a business).

I couldn't imagine trying to do all that back in Canada. Just working and making enough to survive while studying would consume your life; nevermind studying a new language or opening a business.

There are benifits to teaching English in China, but money isn't one of them.

[johnmck]

When I first came to France I often got caught out with shop opening times. Typically they are open 10:00-12:00 and 14:00-19:00 and closed on Sundays, Mondays and national holidays. They open late because they close late. They close for 2 hours at lunchtime because in France mealtimes are sacred (in the UK one eats to live, but in France one lives to eat). They are closed on Mondays because in France everyone has the right to two days consecutive holiday per week (only the very large stores have enough employees to manage this law and open on Mondays).

In France people eat three meals a day at set times. If a restaurant was open at any other time it would be empty.

If you live in France and you are used to the opening times then it is not a problem. Unfortunately life in France is changing as more stores are opening on Sundays and national holidays.

The French tend to take August off for holiday. This means many towns are deserted in August, which is not a problem if you are French because you are not there . Paris does become as close as it ever will to a ghost town in August, this is why I go on holiday in July then I can enjoy Paris in August, no traffic jams, no parking problem, no queues, ...