Does Pimsleur use standard pronunciation?

[leosmith]

For example, Pimsleur uses

zhe4 instead of zhei4 (this)

na4 instead of nei4 (that)

hua1 instead of hua'r1 (flower)

you4bian1 instead of you4bian'r1 (right)

etc.

That's the general trend, although it flips occasionally. I'm being told the northern dialect, which is considered standard, uses the latter pronunciations. Can you confirm?

Thanks.

[atitarev]

I asked a Chinese person from the North some time ago, she said you can say in different ways, one is more common that the other one but the other is not incorrect. It also depends who ask and you get a different answer what is considered "standard" (I am not referring to dialects) but the definition of standard Chinese varies sometimes too . As for "Erhua" (儿化 - erisation) - I heard people from the South usually can't pronounce it properly, they don't use it and don't consider this standard. In Taiwan erisation is never used either. IMHO, you might want to know different versions of pronunciation but stick to one.

Interesting that erisation does not always affect the spelling (儿 suffix) but not saying may sound weird to a Northerner. It does sound weird to some Southerners when you DO say it . There is always a synonym without an 儿

zhe4 - zhei4, na4 - nei4, na3 - na3, shui - shei are both OK.

For these words with an 儿, which are used in the North there is a pair used in the South:

这儿 - 这里

那儿 - 那里

哪儿 - 哪里

[gato]

. I'm being told the northern dialect, which is considered standard, uses the latter pronunciations.

Are you getting this from a dictionary?

I think the former pronunciations are more standard. The latter is the Beijing dialect, which is not necessarily standard Mandarin. News anchors, for example, who are required to speak standard Mandarin, don't add all those r's and er's to the end of their words.

[leosmith]

Are you getting this from a dictionary?

From my tutor actually.

News anchors, for example, who are required to speak standard Mandarin, don't add all those r's and er's to the end of their words.

Interesting. How do announcers pronounce the other words on my list? And how about yidianr & yidian?

[atitarev]

News anchors, for example, who are required to speak standard Mandarin, don't add all those r's and er's to the end of their words.

Gato, you probably mean that they don't overkill the usage of 'er-endings (erisation) like some Northerners do, but they do use 儿化, IMHO. It's not considered standard pronunciation in Taiwan but mainland Chinese TV programs, which are broadcast from Beijing do use them moderately. Wouldn't they say 花儿, rather than 花 (meaning "flower", not "spend")? Please post if you disagree.

EDIT:

This Wikipedia article has no confirmed sources:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Erhua

Érhuà (儿化) refers to the r-coloring or addition of the "ér"(儿) sound (transcribed in IPA as /ɚ/) to syllables in spoken Mandarin Chinese. It is most common in the speeches of North China as a tool of diminution. The Standard Mandarin spoken in government-produced educational and examination recordings features erhua to some extent, as in 哪儿(nǎr), 一点儿(yìdiǎnr), or 好玩儿(hǎowánr), though Southern Chinese usually have difficulty in pronouncing and therefore avoid these words, replacing them with 哪里(nǎlǐ), 一点(yìdiǎn), or 好玩(hǎowán).

[gato]

Wouldn't they say 花儿, rather than 花 (meaning "flower", not "spend")? Please post if you disagree.

Newscasters would say 花 without the 儿. They don't use 儿音, but newscasters are some of the most rigid of Mandarin speakers. Other media people probably do use 儿音 to some extent. But unless they speak the Beijing dialect or something close to it, they probably won't 儿音 too much. Not all northerners use 儿音. I'm a native Mandarin speaker/listener, by the way, though I'm a learner, as well, mostly of reading and writing.

See this posting Baidu Zhidao (answer), which confirms my response:

http://zhidao.baidu.com/question/26720471.html

标准的普通话有带儿音?

标准普通话分三种（前两种加儿，后一种不加）：

1书面语（文学作品）有些带儿，读起来更能表达感情，让听众有亲切感！

2口语，与人沟通交流时，一些词加儿，更顺口！主持人要与观众沟通，增加感情，是要加儿的。

3，正式用语（官方语，包括新闻发言人和电视的新闻主播），正式场合比如领导讲话，官方发言，新闻主播，不加儿，显得严肃正式！（哈哈，谁听过罗京说过“今天儿大年初一”）

[atitarev]

Thanks, Gato. I know you're native speaker, that's why I find it interesting. As I said before (It also depends who ask and you get a different answer what is considered "standard" ), I found that on this matter the opinions of native speakers are contradictory and I heard opinions of educated Northern speakers who said it is a standard way to use 儿音. Well, I guess, a language is a flexible thing and it allows variations even in standards or maybe there is no standard as far as erisation is concerned?

BTW, I was attacked by someone previously on this forum for talking about standardisation in Chinese language. Of course, it would be easier for learners to know what is more correct and stick to that but different textbooks teach slightly different ways.

[DrZero]

My wife would throw me out of the house if I used much erhua. She is from the Shanghai area and uses very few er endings. She does use it on a few words, like nar3, so I don't believe it's accurate to say that non-northerners don't use erhua because they "have trouble with" or "can't" produce those sounds.

They think of northern speech as being alien to them and probably kind of stuck-up, uppity, much the way U.S. southerners think of northern accents. My wife says er endings sound "disgusting."

I started with Pimsleur and did learn some er endings initially. But after she got on my case about them and after I went to her city and saw that they were not used there, I stopped using them. I would feel silly talking that way. In my mind, the locals would think I was purposely trying to differentiate myself from them, trying to talk northern because I looked down on their speech. I'm probably overanalyzing, but I do know those sounds grate on my wife if I use them.

[leosmith]

I started with Pimsleur and did learn some er endings initially.

Doc, are you sure you learned them from Pimsleur? That was one of the the points of my original post; Pimsleur uses very few r endings. The only consistent one I can think of is yidian'r (they slipped in an yidian once, which confused me).

[HashiriKata]

I do know those sounds grate on my wife if I use them.

I hope she doesn't threaten divorce over your use of er endings ?

[leosmith]

News anchors, for example, who are required to speak standard Mandarin, don't add all those r's and er's to the end of their words.

How do announcers pronounce the other words on my original list? And how about yidianr & yidian?

Anyone?

[gato]

They use the first pronunciations you listed. The second ones you listed are the local pronunciations in Beijing and many northern areas.

I think it would be better that foreigners stick with standard Mandarin and not try to do the er-hua because it usually sounds very forced. Very few can make it sound natural. Imagine how a foreign learner of English would sound if he or she tried to do a Southern drawl or a New York accent.

[lokki]

Pimsleur uses -r endings at least in the following cases: na3'er, na4'er, zhe4'er are used exclusively instead of na li and zhe li, and they use yi dian'er and hua'er, and perhaps a few other ones that I can't remember.

[wushijiao]

Generally speaking, I wouldn't be all that concerned about the 儿化 issue. As long as you know that some words ending will end up with an "r" sound, well, that's good enough. I would agree with atitarev that it might be a good idea to pronounce words with one way or the other, and then change your pronunciation if you happen to go to a certain place. I think, in some ways, it is no different than someone who learns English and has to decide if they will pronounce the final "r" in words like "butter" (like most Yanks), or if they won't. Or in Spanish, should you pronounce C's in a Latin American way, or a Spanish way?

It is best to be aware that the issue exists (so that you can hear people who say it both ways and understand them), and then just change your accent based on where you live.

Also, as far as the 儿化 issue, I'm no linguist, but I'm pretty sure that Shanxi, Shaaxi, Henan, Inner Monglia, Hubei, Beijing, Liaoning, Jilin, and Heilongjiang generally 儿化 (although, perhaps not to the degree that Beijingers do). In any case, that would seem, population-wise, to be about half the country, as far as Mandarin speakers (very, very roughly speaking).

[gato]

Shanxi, Shaaxi, Henan, Inner Monglia, Hubei, Beijing, Liaoning, Jilin, and Heilongjiang ...would seem, population-wise, to be about half the country, as far as Mandarin speakers (very, very roughly speaking).

Actually about 1/3, or somewhere around 400 million.

http://pop.pcpop.com/070422/3066970.html

Population (10,000)

河南 9479

河北 6935

辽宁 4229

北京 1560

黑龙江 3840

内蒙古 2408

山西 3396

天津 1050

陕西 3735

吉林 2730

[skylee]

I agree with DrZero's #8.

[atitarev]

I don't insist we should use 儿化 but the provinces Wushijiao mentioned are all considered to speak Mandarin dialects or dialects, which are the closest to standard Mandarin. (though, it's only about a third of Chinese population). It may be only 1/3 of total Chinese population but the majority of native Mandarin speakers (or dialects thereof).

And another thing, a lot of new Mandarin courses and textbooks published in the West and used by courses and Universities teach Mandarin with 儿化, to mention a few: Teach Yourself Chinese, Teach Yourself Beginner's Chinese, Practical Chinese Reader and its successor, Colloquial Chinese, Ultimate Mandarin, etc.

儿化 may be sound funny or arrogant, etc. in some provinces but if it's so common in areas where more standard Mandarin is spoken, which one you'd prefer to learn?

[DrZero]

That's an easy one: I'd rather learn the one that helps me get by better in the area where I spend the most time and with the people I speak with most. For me there is no point in learning the pronunciation of the north when I've never been there and am not likely to spend a lot of time there.

Now if I were spending time in the north, it would be a different story. I would try to speak more like they do.

If I were studying at home and didn't yet know which part of China I might connect most closely with, I would probably try to learn something close to newscaster Mandarin.

[L-F-J]

hasnt it been discussed that standard mandarin uses some erhua- such as zher, nar, yidianr? these are all standard mandarin. although, not using them is also standard mandarin.

but these and perhaps a few others are the extent of erhua used in mandarin. if its loaded with erhua its probably beijing dialect. if it doubles as in yidiandian, its likely southern tendency. (which can easily be turned off or on depending on where you are)

but standard mandarin is a rather soft dialect which does in fact have a few erhua in it.

i'd say pimsleur indeed uses standard mandarin pronunciation. it uses just the few erhua that are found in proper mandarin.

[L-F-J]

also zhei and nei are not just different pronunciations of zhe and na. they are fusions of zhe yi and na yi. said quickly together they form zhei and nei.

so zheige. is the same as zhe yige. saying zhe or zhei just depends on the situation. both of them are correct and standard mandarin.